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Old Dec 05, 2012, 12:13 PM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
Aren't those generally considered liquid resources?
Slaves and clothing, certainly. Land notso much.

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I wonder how wealthy a man that owned a hundred acres of desert was considered?
Certain parts of New Mexico, billions of dollars.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 12:17 PM
Time for me to Fly...
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
In an economic sense, good and services are wealth, and worth *more* than the money paid for them. It really is just that basic.
Are they worth more or are they worth about the same? Each has to feel that they are getting a good value in the trade, for sure so at that "instant in time" they may be worth more but one second later they may be worth significantly less... Especially when viewed by another or in the case of buyer's remorse. The money that traded hands however, is still worth about the same amount.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 12:21 PM
Time for me to Fly...
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Originally Posted by madsci_guy View Post
Slaves and clothing, certainly. Land notso much.

Certain parts of New Mexico, billions of dollars.
Land isn't liquid? Don't tell that to the bank next time you go in for a mortgage. I agree that some land is worth much more than other land. Not all land has value. In fact, right now and in certain parts of the country land that was once very valuable isn't worth much at all. It's all relative to what one values.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 12:55 PM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
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Dayton, OH
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
So in your model businesses are not consumers. Heck, I'll just incorporate then and I'll pay none either.
Yep. It's called the Fair Tax. In essence all consumers pay all of the taxes in one form or another. This simply puts that transaction at one point in time.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:08 PM
Trons and Fumes
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Nope. Your revisionist history is forgetting that Hostess was in bankruptcy twice before WITHOUT the baker's union putting them there.
Neither does that place blame upon the executives......

Remember, if it weren't for those execs, the company may actually have been in worse shape than it was when the baker's union shut it down.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:10 PM
Chillin till SEFF
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Bottom line is all that matters. Profit must be made or business fails. Operating costs go up and product/service cost follow
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:11 PM
Trons and Fumes
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Originally Posted by Indiana_Geoff View Post
If your goal is to pay people enough so they can buy your product to stimulate demand... then how do you pay for all the raw materials.

Ford did not pay his people so they could be customers. He drove down the cost of production so he could cut prices so that more people (ford workers or not) could afford them. At the same time he took part of that efficiency and put it into wages so that he could maintain a stable, trained workforce.

Unprecedented efficiency sold Fords, not higher wages.
The premise is a fallacy. Does Ferrari pay its employees enough to afford their product? No, Ferrari pays its employees enough to get them to work for Ferrari; and prices the product to make a profit in the existing market for that product. Whether the people making the product can afford the product is irrelevant.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:45 PM
Radix malorum est cupiditas
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Nope. Your revisionist history is forgetting that Hostess was in bankruptcy twice before WITHOUT the baker's union putting them there.
Over the long haul, Hostesses failure is certainly managements fault.

With respect to it's final management - I understand that much of it was brought in since the last BK as a re-organization team. You can certainly say they deserve less or no bonus since their efforts to save the company failed, however, it is easy to see that it would be impossible to bring in a qualified team without some compensation guarantees irrespective of success.

You can be sure they would have had much more to gain if the company ended up successful. And certainly those folks brought in to try to fix the thing are not responsible for the past failures and ill health they inherited (just like Obama is not responsible for what he inherited, only for his accomplishments.)
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:01 PM
Cat Rack
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
Are they worth more or are they worth about the same? Each has to feel that they are getting a good value in the trade, for sure so at that "instant in time" they may be worth more but one second later they may be worth significantly less... Especially when viewed by another or in the case of buyer's remorse. The money that traded hands however, is still worth about the same amount.
All you can know about the items traded is their value at the instant of the trade. Future value is unknowable until they are once again traded. Yes you can estimate and make guesses, but after all the *actual* valution is provided solely by the two parties involved.

And this is true even in the presence of the distortions imposed by non marketplace forces, such as the State tacking on taxes or subsidizing items. The true valuation of the traders will now take those things into account, and shift their values and behaviors to account for the distortions.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:04 PM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
Land isn't liquid?
Not near as much as a savings account.

Title search, tax liens, etc make it less liquid than cash in an account.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:56 PM
Time for me to Fly...
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Still, it has a fairly readily available cash value. All you need to do is execute a quit claim deed in exchange for cash.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 06:12 PM
Trons and Fumes
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Fallon, NV
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Originally Posted by radix2 View Post
Over the long haul, Hostesses failure is certainly managements fault.

With respect to it's final management - I understand that much of it was brought in since the last BK as a re-organization team. You can certainly say they deserve less or no bonus since their efforts to save the company failed, however, it is easy to see that it would be impossible to bring in a qualified team without some compensation guarantees irrespective of success.

You can be sure they would have had much more to gain if the company ended up successful. And certainly those folks brought in to try to fix the thing are not responsible for the past failures and ill health they inherited (just like Obama is not responsible for what he inherited, only for his accomplishments.)
It is also easy to see that no matter what compensation any management team receives, success isn't guaranteed, either. Simply put, whether the team succeeds or not doesn't judge whether or not they were worth the cost. If the company desired to attempt a turn-around, the cost is justified; or they would not pay the cost to attempt a turn-around.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 06:54 PM
Time for me to Fly...
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
All you can know about the items traded is their value at the instant of the trade. Future value is unknowable until they are once again traded. Yes you can estimate and make guesses, but after all the *actual* valution is provided solely by the two parties involved.
What point are you trying to make? Either the items traded have more value than the money they were traded for as you claim or they do not. If for any reason they have less value, is that the creation of wealth or the destruction of it? Owning items does not necessarily mean one is wealthy... Particularly not if nobody else values those items. Now, if you personally feel wealthy sitting on a small pile of dirt then you are but in economic terms, you probably are not unless there is a lot of gold dust in that pile.

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And this is true even in the presence of the distortions imposed by non marketplace forces, such as the State tacking on taxes or subsidizing items. The true valuation of the traders will now take those things into account, and shift their values and behaviors to account for the distortions.
I'm baffled why you keep bringing me back to these market distortion points. I've never claimed anything you've said about them were inaccurate. You are absolutely right. Market distortions distort the market. Whether or not the distortions are harmful is the question. Of course, you can argue any distortion is harmful just the same as I can argue drinking even one beer is harmful to your health. Sometimes we take a little bad with the good.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 08:44 PM
Who, ME?
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Euclid Ohio
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Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
The premise is a fallacy. Does Ferrari pay its employees enough to afford their product? No, Ferrari pays its employees enough to get them to work for Ferrari; and prices the product to make a profit in the existing market for that product. Whether the people making the product can afford the product is irrelevant.
Ferrari doesn't make cars for the masses and never did.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 08:52 PM
Trons and Fumes
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Fallon, NV
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Originally Posted by dll932 View Post
Ferrari doesn't make cars for the masses and never did.
So what? Was that stipulated?
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