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Old Dec 05, 2012, 08:49 AM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
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Originally Posted by dll932 View Post
That sounds too limited to me and not considering enough factors.
VC's often do not understand the technical aspect of your idea, so they go with the numbers.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 08:57 AM
Trons and Fumes
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Fallon, NV
Joined Mar 2007
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Originally Posted by flyzwell View Post
So I assume you think there should be no minimum wage? Maybe you're right I don't think China has, and their doing ok.

As wages go lower, profits go higher. Wealth over the years has been transferring to the top, which is good for them, but maybe not so good for America as a whole.

Higher wages put more money directly in pockets of more people than government programs do from higher taxes, and may be better for our country.
Misrepresentation.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 09:00 AM
Trons and Fumes
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Fallon, NV
Joined Mar 2007
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Originally Posted by thunder1 View Post
No execs might be better than the execs leading their company into bankruptcy.

I'd bet they'd go for the Christmans presents thing if those getting the Christmas presents contribute their pay for the promised pensions.
You assume that the execs made negative impact on the outcome. Falsely.

It is as valid to assume that the execs DID add value, minimizing the negative impact.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 09:55 AM
In Development Now
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Originally Posted by dll932 View Post
I'm not so sure. To me, sacrificing a little profit to ensure success down the road makes sense-it did to Henry Ford when he decided to pay his employees more so they could buy his cars. Also, how much profit is ENOUGH?
No business (even ole Ford) can't pay it's people enough to buy it's own products as a winning strategy. The Math's don't work.

But in America today, Math is largely irrelevant.

Besides, Americans have more stuff than ever. Larger houses, more TV's, more cars, more vacation, more eating out.. the list goes on and on. How can they do this if the pay is inadequate?
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:05 AM
Time for me to Fly...
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United States, MI, Fenton
Joined Jan 2000
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Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492 View Post
It's an easy fix. Get rid of all income and payroll taxes on individuals and businesses. Have only a consumption tax.
Oh yeah... I'm all for that. Still, under that system, couldn't you see people arguing about why the % of tax on a loaf of bread isn't lower than % of tax on a roll of sheet steel.... or whatever. I imagine that system can be manipulated to benefit big business and wealthy people too and there will be people that champion each side of the argument. In the end it would be different but in many important ways, just the same.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:09 AM
Time for me to Fly...
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United States, MI, Fenton
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Originally Posted by Indiana_Geoff View Post
Higher wages mean higher prices. So what is the point?
It doesn't matter what the actual price and wages are. What matters is the difference between what you earn and the cost of living. Ideally, we have a decent spread here. That's wealth.... when it's in the right direction.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:20 AM
It's 5 O'clock Somewhere
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Dayton, OH
Joined Feb 2006
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Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
Oh yeah... I'm all for that. Still, under that system, couldn't you see people arguing about why the % of tax on a loaf of bread isn't lower than % of tax on a roll of sheet steel.... or whatever. I imagine that system can be manipulated to benefit big business and wealthy people too and there will be people that champion each side of the argument. In the end it would be different but in many important ways, just the same.
Not at all. It wouldn't benefit big business over small business or individuals. No businesses would pay income taxes or payroll taxes. People would take home 100% of what they earned and they can decide what to buy and in essence how much they want to pay in taxes.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:22 AM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
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Originally Posted by Indiana_Geoff View Post
No business (even ole Ford) can't pay it's people enough to buy it's own products as a winning strategy. The Math's don't work.
?????

Make cars, sell them for $850, pay your workers $5 per day($1300 per year), and it does indeed work.
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Last edited by madsci_guy; Dec 05, 2012 at 10:48 AM. Reason: Bad Arithmetic
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:22 AM
Time for me to Fly...
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United States, MI, Fenton
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Originally Posted by Indiana_Geoff View Post
No business (even ole Ford) can't pay it's people enough to buy it's own products as a winning strategy. The Math's don't work.
Why not? Are their employees their only customers? How many years do their employees drive their cars before they replace them? If the maths don't work for them how can the maths work for anything? We all work for someone that makes something or provides some service. If we can't afford ourselves, who can?
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:31 AM
Time for me to Fly...
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United States, MI, Fenton
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Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492 View Post
Not at all. It wouldn't benefit big business over small business or individuals. No businesses would pay income taxes or payroll taxes. People would take home 100% of what they earned and they can decide what to buy and in essence how much they want to pay in taxes.
Except that (hypothetically) a loaf of bread is taxed at $45% and a coil of steal is taxed at 20%. The business gets to operate at a lower tax rate than the average guy just trying to feed his family. So you wanna pay less tax? Don't buy that bread. But I'll buy that bread because I made a killing selling my products that I made with lower taxed steel. I know my example is an over simplification but humans being humans, I'm fairly certain something like that would arise. There is no perfect solution.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:33 AM
Radix malorum est cupiditas
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Originally Posted by madsci_guy View Post
?????

Make cars, sell them for $850, pay your workers $5 per hour ($10K per year), and it does indeed work.
how about $5/day ?
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:35 AM
Figure Nine Champ
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North Texas
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Did I slip a cog? Oops, you are correct, thanks!

$1300 is still not out of the question, though
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Last edited by madsci_guy; Dec 05, 2012 at 10:49 AM.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:43 AM
Time for me to Fly...
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United States, MI, Fenton
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Of course it works. All that has to happen for it to work is that cost per unit has to be less than the selling price. The argument is that you cant pay your employees enough to afford the products you make and still keep your cost low enough that they themselves can afford them. That's silly. That takes no account of savings on the part of the employee. It also takes no account of them being able to produce more than they need for themselves.

That's the essence of how an economy works... Each of us has the ability to work and produce more than we actually need to survive. This is multiplied when we specialize. If each of us had to make and do absolutely everything for ourselves the surplus at the end of the day might be pretty thin or there may be none. Since we specialize (do a particular job) we create efficiencies that average guy might not have at his disposal and we create a surplus. We use that surplus to trade with others that have made a surplus of something else. Businesses further facilitate and harness this ability and the owners of these businesses reap the benefits of that by skimming off the top. You get some profit from your labors and the company you work for gets to keep some of it too. The degree to which each benefits varies based on many things. Oh and to make this whole thing convenient, we use a trading system called money instead of trading cars for loaves of bread and other such nonsense.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:47 AM
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United States, OH, Brilliant
Joined Sep 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492 View Post
The execs didn't shut down the place. That is squarely on the bakers union.
Nope. Your revisionist history is forgetting that Hostess was in bankruptcy twice before WITHOUT the baker's union putting them there.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 11:01 AM
Who, ME?
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Euclid Ohio
Joined May 2005
298 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Indiana_Geoff View Post
No business (even ole Ford) can't pay it's people enough to buy it's own products as a winning strategy. The Math's don't work.

But in America today, Math is largely irrelevant.

Besides, Americans have more stuff than ever. Larger houses, more TV's, more cars, more vacation, more eating out.. the list goes on and on. How can they do this if the pay is inadequate?
Easy: that finger in the dike called "credit." That so many are over their heads in debt shows how things aren't working...on both ends. If not for credit our economy would have tanked long ago, what with real income dropping steadily over the years.
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