Pete S.
You are absolutely correct by saying there are tons of plans on the internet, and to me this can be overwhelming at times. But that is not what I meant. What I am trying to say is "member plans". You know the one off planes that our fellow modelers post up here on RC Groups. When I see these a I am amazed and often inspired. But we do not always post up plans to our creations so freely. I'd love to build some of the fine models I often see only to see it being kitted, cut, sliced and diced out to the group in a blister pack! On the Micro forums there are few plans by "Members". On the scratchbuilt forum its all posted (Well quite a few more). And no I am not knocking anyone for selling kits, Heck I wished I had the money to by one of each of them. (I do actually, but have other priorities, like food but who need food).
Keith

I don't mind the RTF crossover, I know that stuff is an excellent source of parts

But being a long-time micro and indoor modeler, versed in actuators and shaving mg because "I have to", I don't like the RTF crowd which comes in with 75g+ airplanes with 2S/3S packs... They are just too big, and don't fit the category.

Indoor and micro should take it's roots, and grow from there. Models which are comparible to the REAL indoor and micro the "founding fathers' put down- Making the smallest models which can be made.

I like the actuator models, but the smallest models made with these Parkzone/Hobbyzone bricks fit in enough for me. The larger models made with them? Stay over with the Parkflying/RTF crowd.

Originally Posted by nemoskull

[snip]
by the way, Pete, have you ever thought of using a 0.3mm router bit instead of a laser?
i got some from israel, and theyu cut very nice. but my hands too wobbly.

It's not the laser, it's the XY Plotter part that I need.

If I had one I'd be able to do all the cutting exactly as I want.

BTW, I've already cut templates for a fourteen inch span Sperry Messenger. That adds a bit more area and sticking in lighter gear means I can probably fly a lot slower. What's stopping me? Room! I'm totally out of space. I'd have to build it in the bath tub.

Pete

I agree that a lot of threads posted here might be better suited to other forums, but there is no clear definition of "Indoor and Micro", so it's what it has become.

Early intervention by our moderator would have helped, but that opens a big can of worms. (Back when Jim Bourke launched this site, he was quite strict. He once threatened to ban me from this site for calling another poster on an outright lie!!).
So I will pick my threads while I pick my brain and build what I consider "micro" planes, 'cause they're really small - but not all of them.

Just look through the Micro Thread Index, the second item at the top of the thread list. Even though most of it seems prehistoric compared to what we have today, there are always litle lessons to be learned for today's planes, equipment and techniques.

Looking WAY back.

When I started in this hobby my guess is that my 27 inch Willard Schoolboy would have been considered micro.

When it came to reeds and early propo any plane that could drag itself off the ground with a .15 engine probably qualified. I think most of the stuff we flew in those days weighed five to eight pounds and could be heard a mile or so away.

I built a couple of pretty light gliders based on SE-2 escapements and Otarion Rx's but they were probably three feet in span.

Today's "micro's" don't seem very small though they are a lot smaller than what we used to fly. The Carbon Cub, for instance has a two foot wing span.

I'd seriously like to get away from weight and wing span as defining micro (or nano) and move to scale as the deciding factor.

I won't give any specifics but I'd love to see a bunch of planes all built to the same scale and if the largest was a four engined WWII bomber with a four foot span it would still be considered micro. If it had a one foot span P-51 or Spitfire sitting next to it (assuming that's about the same scale) that would be fantastic.

Then we could opt for exact definitions of micro, nano and pico and all these things would look right standing next to each other.

Somehow my Carbon Cub and my Champ don't look right together. They may both be micro but they are not nearly the same. Sitting the C. Cub next to the MiG 15 is ludicrous.

The next big step for me would be standardizing scales.

Pete

Good idea on standardizing scales.
The Guillows 500 and 900 series are 1/32 scale. That is small enough for me.
These are all 16" span, does that qualify?

Glenn

Originally Posted by PeteSchug

I'd seriously like to get away from weight and wing span as defining micro (or nano) and move to scale as the deciding factor.

The problem with that idea is that not all RC planes are designed as scale models of full sized planes. Many are designed from the get-go as RC aircraft only.

I've seen "ultra micro" planes ranging in size from 6 inches to more than 2 feet.

Originally Posted by BigIron357

The problem with that idea is that not all RC planes are designed as scale models of full sized planes. Many are designed from the get-go as RC aircraft only.

I've seen "ultra micro" planes ranging in size from 6 inches to more than 2 feet.

and then you also have the large lightweight slow planes. they are indoor, and very light for their size, but not micro. do you exclude them because they arent small enough even when they can fly in the same space as most smaller planes?

i have always felt this forum is primarily for builders of both kits and scratch built micros or indoor planes. the occasional rtf thread is good to know whats new and upcoming, i never would have known about the new micro vapor unless it had been posted here as i never really visit the micro rtf forum.

Originally Posted by MUTCAKE

Perhaps we should have a MICRO BUILDERS FORUM!!!

Topics: "Electric Peanuts Builds", Electric Bostonians, Balsa to foam conversions, 1/72, 1/32nd scale models, House of Frog conversions to RC, Etc. etc. I love building but also lack the inspiration. I sometimes go to the free flight forum for inspiration. Remember the old series the 6 Million Dollar Man, "We have the technology we can rebuild him"? Well we have the tech also, we just need the drive and inspiration.
If we had a builders forum only there would be a better chance of getting plans. In the scratch builders forum plans are shared freely. There are very few trying to SELL their models. I don't have an issue with those who devote themselves to making money off this hobby. If they have the gifts and talents they should, more power to them. I'd rather see a modeler recieve something for his hard earned/developed ideas instead of some off shore company ripping his ideas off. That said I would like to see a free exchange of plans, plans, plans. And build, build, build!
Keith

I really like your idea of a special Micro Builders' Forum, Keith. Something worth considering might be a 1S cell limit for a model to qualify as a micro.
Ah but, .......I know......!

With my limited skills (getting even worse as I get older!) I am very happy to buy the odd RTF micro, but I do enjoy tinkering and experimenting - I'm currently attempting a Cri Cri for heck's sake! And I especially appreciate the work of the masters, some of whom have contributed to this thread (the Petes for instance). A Builder's Forum would be a first stop on my regular delving into RC groups.
Peter
ps I do miss those Bit Chargers! P

Maybe the title change could be as simple as micro & indoor building?

I make my own micro planes because I need something to look at when I fly, something I am really interested in. I go to the RC swap and shops to buy banged up horizon hobby micros, and harvest the parts out of them to make mostly WWI planes. I don't even fly them. just take the parts out of them and throw the body away, then start work on my own model. nothing against horizon hobby.

The planes that they call micro are not always something I can fly indoors. too many of them, in my opinion, fly too fast to be indoors and are too small to fly outdoors where I live.

micro builders forum would be good. that's where I would be reading.

I really come to the forums to get an education, and occasionally share something I've built. I'e learned alot from the people who share on RCG.

I would say your right Mr. Rake, I am also more interested in the scratch built stuff than the rest of it.

Defining "Micro", is very tough indeed. With the major manufacturers now applying UMX to the term it muddies the water even further. RC Groups and other forums have already loosely defined the term. It's OUR hobby not theirs. They just provide products for us based what they perceive we want. It is up the hobbiest to define the terms we would like to use. If we in the hobby define what "Micro, Nano etc. etc means companies will have to follow suit in order to be accepted. Maybe a poll with some well defined limits, goals? But beware what you ask for .
Keith

Originally Posted by derk

and then you also have the large lightweight slow planes. they are indoor, and very light for their size, but not micro. do you exclude them because they arent small enough even when they can fly in the same space as most smaller planes?

i have always felt this forum is primarily for builders of both kits and scratch built micros or indoor planes. the occasional rtf thread is good to know whats new and upcoming, i never would have known about the new micro vapor unless it had been posted here as i never really visit the micro rtf forum.

Yeah, I really like this indoor C-47, but it's not quite micro.

10-Foot C-47 Indoor RC Model (1 min 41 sec)

I feel like it should be by weight, anything under 50 grams sounds good.
But what about twins?
And then you get planes like the Hyper taxi which are heavy, but are meant and are best for an indoor environment.
Honestly, i see the main point here is about RTF and BNF planes being discussed here, if the forum title says "indoor" indoor planes will come if people enjoy flying it indoors, shouldnt "flying well indoors" be the yard stick, albeit leeway for some faster flyers?

But then again, what defines a parkflyer?
Im surprised everytime i go over to that forum to see 40-50 inch WS that need a nice runway.

Im really sorry if this post comes off as redundant.

Well, it's encouraging to see I'm not the only one feeling this way. At least, you haven't all told me to shut up and go back to the scale forum.
A micro builder's forum would be great, but theoretically that's what this is already. I don't care what the models are built from, it's the built, not bought, aspect that is of interest to me.
As regards finding out what's available to put into said models, where there are builders there will be people who try out the latest 'salvaged' equipment.
I'm not anti RTF/ARF, I just like build threads where I expect to find them and ARF info where I expect that to be.

Scale models, sport models, balsa, foam or paper makes no difference to me. Aerobatic or gentle flying doesn't matter either. As long as someone built it I'm likely to be more interested than in an endless list of modifications to a fly straight out of the box model.

As regards what counts as micro, I'm with the 1S brigade. Within reason size isn't so much an issue. I doubt that anyone would consider a sub 10 gram Penny Plane type model to be anything but an indoor micro model. Maybe how much flying space a model requires would be a better guide. Afterall, a model that requires a hanger or covered sports stadium do fly indoors, but it is rather stretching the term.
It really sickens me when I see you guys flying in huge gyms, when the best I can manage is a pokey village hall, so for me flying space is an important factor, but not all micro models have to fly indoors, so faster types don't get excluded.
I like built-up balsa models, but also enjoy building with foam, and creating designs for both mediums. I like actuators for their lightness, but also have a stock of 1.8 gram servos and an Orange 415 receiver. These are spoken for in the RC Factory Bristol Scout my wife has stashed away for Christmas. No socks for me this year!!!! I have Vapor bricks scattered all over the place too, so all that's needed now is the inspiration - and the time to build the models such inspiration generates. Like perfecting some of these:-

Pete