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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:02 AM
Nickel Belter
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Northern Ontario
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Quote:
Originally Posted by herrmill View Post
The Greeks would be doing fine had they not joined the EU & lost control of their currency & the ability to micromanage their own economy.
Greece was in a pickle because tax evasion was a national hobby and Greeks love their public spending. The US is already headed down the Greek path.

They should not have joined the EU because of the control it is attempting to exert over Greek society, culture and demographics; underlying economic issues would've existed regardless and can only really be corrected internally within Greece.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 05:28 AM
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The larger problem is that all the EU member states are united under a single currency, not a single government.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 07:24 AM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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LOL - Nailed it JayJay!!! And history foretells the fate of the TeaParty and its adherents as well.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 12:12 PM
Grumpa Tom
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This has turned into a lib love fest!
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 04:24 PM
Shanghai'd Expat
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No, I'd say its an interesting, open-minded discussion mostly devoid of the usual over-the-top FAUX talking points one typically finds in the LTUP basement.
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 05:17 PM
Grumpa Tom
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Geez, make up your mind!

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...5&postcount=44
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Old Dec 12, 2012, 05:31 PM
Shanghai'd Expat
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I know, I know... but its just starting to get interesting.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 04:57 AM
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kmot - rejecting laissez faire capitalism does not make me a liberal.

"We the People, in order to form a more perfect union" Right in the first line of the constitution, America is spelled out as a nation built on the concept of a cohesive society. So don't reject socialism as a foreign concept, it has been a part of America from the beginning. Unionized labor is not socialism, communism, or any other political caricature pushed by the right. It is Americanism.

Union busters and the far-right "right to work" crowd are the true communists, striving to create a broad, divided, and easily controlled underclass where workers should shut up and accept the pittance they are offered, fall in line behind the others, and thank the gods of capitalism for the 39-hour week they are given.

I've been to many Chinese factories, and I've seen the way they work, side by side, in total silence. They are required to sign pledges that they wont kill themselves on company property. Only these aren't forced laborers, they need these jobs. And so the pay and working conditions are deplorable. And no better opportunities exist. That is not only communism, it is pure capitalism.

And pure capitalism dictates that as long as the costs of labor overseas and shipping to our shores (including port fees and duties) are even $0.10 cheaper per hour than paying an American to do the same work, the manufacturing jobs simply are not coming back.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 07:43 AM
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Thanks JayJay for your comments. You've really said it all
I have an old friend who say's this isn't socialism. And when I disagre he gets all pissy and leaves.
I guess the truth hurts sometimes.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:21 AM
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The thing that is missed is that the wages they are arguing for are far from a LIVING wage. I would bet that they houses those port of LA workers live in were built by framers (the vast majority of which are non-union) that make a heck of a lot less than they do. I would bet that the guy who installed their satellite dishes (the vast majority of which are non-union) makes a hell of a lot less per year. I will bet that the guys who paint their union hall (which you and I both know could be union, but the union will NOT pay the %30 extra it would cost for a union painter to do it). Now do those people not make a LIVING wage?

Unions have gone from protecting the rights of workers to protecting their OWN interests to the EXCLUSION of the companies that those workers labor for! Two shipyards in Jacksonville, FL; one is union (they are always hiring, because they cannot fire anyone), they have 28 cranes and over 100 union crane operators (who spend 7 months a year 'laid off due to lack of work'), yard next door (non-union) has 18 cranes (and 35 crane drivers (3 shifts but not all the cranes are used every day). The second yard pays exactly 11% less than the first, what are the union dues for the crane drivers? 10%!! When the union threatens to strike for higher money and benefits (neither yard really offers them) which yard pulls the plug and shuts down, putting 1200 people out of work? The union yard! The other yard staggers along till other conditions kill it half a decade later, still paying less than the union yard had (allowing for inflation)

Right to work is not an anti-union argument it is a I refuse to pay someone who thinks they know more about my interests than I do argument! If I can put that amount of money I would pay in union dues in my pocket and not pay for a union negotiator, shop steward, councilman, or president in MY pocket. If I do not like the conditions at a company or job site than I can go elsewhere I KNOW what my skills are worth and what it should take for a company to be able to do business (if I didn't then I shouldn't be working). If I over-value those skills to the detriment of that organization then I hurt the company. Yes unions helped make this country but they are STRANGLING it now with their self-interested demands.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 09:58 AM
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Fooman, you make some valid points, but don't let anyone convince you that a handful of overpaid dock workers as justification to break unions. Are there abuses? Sure. But don't throw out the baby with the bathwater.

To respond to your anecdote about the two shipyards, consider for a moment that the non-union one has to offer wages to compete with the union pay scale, otherwise they would have no employees. Think the difference in pay is a coincidence? So even non-union workers benefit from strong unions.

I live in Germany, known as a workers paradise. I earn more in Germany than I could in the states, enjoy a higher standard of living at lower living costs, fantastic healthcare, and receive the German labor standard 6 weeks of paid vacation per year. The same amount as the Angolan janitor who takes care of the building I work in, and the Turkish lady who cleans my office. Just one of the many reasons for so little class segregation in Germany, and so little crime.

The worst part of living abroad is the 2 weeks I go home at Christmas and have to watch my relatives struggling to make it in a broken economy.

And let me give you a little hint, the good jobs are never coming back. Your children will almost certainly need to master a foreign language to have a chance at a career after college.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:13 PM
Grumpa Tom
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jayjay: I am a union member, have been in a union for over 30 years now. That does not blind me to the fact unions are rife with greed, corruption, cronyism, socialism, Marxism, vitriol, hatred of those with opposing opinions, and violence against them.

Unionism was a good thing, 80 years ago. Today I am not so sure.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 01:55 PM
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Bang! Tom hit it right on the head there, at some point the unions forgot that they also need to work with the COMPANIES to enable them to survive in the world economy. If you kill the company no one keeps a job, hostess is the poster child for too much union not enough company. That is not to say that the bakers did not have a reason to strike, but for more and more owners of companies it is just easier to say I am not going to break my company just to satisfy a union.
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kmot View Post
Unionism was a good thing, 80 years ago. Today I am not so sure.
Were you able to retire with a pension and some other benefits?
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Old Dec 13, 2012, 05:24 PM
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Speaking of those "greedy" unions, pensions & Twinkies...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/hostes...051400720.html

http://blog.chron.com/lorensteffy/20...pension-costs/
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