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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:16 PM
GER 3788
Joined Feb 2012
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Hello Steve,

just updated the new firmware to my 160HV.

Lets see how the ramps are going...

BR

Matze
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by sneu View Post
if you were to talk to people who know prop design you would understand why it matters. If we did not have to deal with limited energy then this discussion would be useless--but given that we do-- getting the maximum power transfer in the most efficient manner lets you have an advantage on the field.
Steve Neu
I think the idea is to match the rpm of the prop to the forward speed of the plane so that the prop angle of attack stays close to a high efficiency value. Maybe not its maximum efficiency as this may not be high enough power, but far away from stalled at one end and just stirring air at the other.

Ideally you want to measure the forward speed of the plane and adjust the prop rpm to suit. I tried using prop rpm at approximately constant voltage as a measure of the forward speed, we know that the prop speeds up and the current declines as the plane's speed rises. But I could not get it to work, it was not sensitive enough to plane speed and too sensitive to battery voltage and maybe air conditions. Maybe if I could divide the rpm by the voltage to get an on-load Kv this would be better. But the best way would be to measure the airspeed with a sensor.

In the mean-time an open loop ramp is just an approximation to what is needed.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 07:38 PM
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Updated firmware on my 200 lite, first attempt at ramps coming up

MarkF - Its under the Motor menu on the A9, The ON -Speed is the time in seconds from 0-100% throttle. Im gonna start at 1sec and see if it looks/sounds right

Becuase Hitecs programmers are all muppets, a proper throttle curve is available in acro mode, but not glider mode And Acro mode has no crow/camber menus.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 09:55 PM
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Joined Feb 2002
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Having to get a charger capable of 10S is an additional cost., and another box to be carried to the field. Other than that I'm about all set and looking forward to it.

Its nice to see the tone of the conversations haven't changed!
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by jjmouris View Post
...................................

I don't see why we have to move to higher voltage. I was one of the first to promote it and now I am actually going back to 6S. The cost is simply lower at this stage.

Maybe you should try one of my budget controllers.
..........
I was and remain a constant opponent of any kind of innovation, while operating equipment is not completely given to its maximum performance. So I was an opponent of the transition to 10S. But the efficiency of the system with 10S battery, even with a very small volume of tests, making me spend just as much time on the development of these systems.

It is possible that if a single purchase system 6S are cheaper now. (I have a lovely new battery 6S2600-75C that I can offer at 50 euros per pack.) But if you plan to use the system in a competitive practice, it is a year of sports operating system 10C shows its economic efficiency, greater than 6S. Rotor magnets, the system operating at 220-310A (6S), lose their power is quite noticeable (data logger) after 70-100 flights. In the system of 10C, making about 100 flights on currents 180-210A, I do not notice a decrease in the effectiveness of the motor.

Yes, and I was, would be very interesting to try to budget the controller! Suddenly, there really is no difference? Then why pay more?
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 02:52 AM
GER 3788
Joined Feb 2012
188 Posts
I can understand Joe quite good...

When there are systems available that bring same performance and which are much cheaper, then go for it.

For 8-10s Setup there is no low cost available..but a 160HV is approx 220,00 Euros....this is quite cheap and what I heard CC has a great service when something goes wrong.

Unfortunately YGE does not have this....the 200HV is damn expensive and seems to be the only one to deal with the 9s Plettenberg. For normal pilots this setup is 840,00 Euros.....damn I did that, but was worth it....great setup.

I think it stays like it is.....good components are not cheap.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 10:56 AM
Inglish Nub
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Matze thats not right.
The newest components are not cheap. A Hacker B50 or Neu 1512 with GX200 is still a competitive setup but really cheap with 300€ total. But if you need to have the newest gear possible you pay way more thats the same with cars or whatever.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 11:23 AM
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Hi jackosm,
I have programmed the hotliners on the Aurora 9 in Acro mode, for crow you have the Landing function, also you can use the CAMBMIX function and Crow could be controlled with the Left Slide instead of a switch. You need to create flight conditions, I have 5 FC: Launch, Normal, Camber, reflex and Landing. I replaced the F switch for a Momentary switch to control the motor using the Thr. cut function. With Thr. curve function I can launch the Enigma with only 700W, so no torque roll, then ramp to 4000W in 1 sec., because I flight @ slope also have between 500W and 600W for landing just in case.
Check this Aurora 9 template: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=28

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackosmeister View Post
MarkF - Its under the Motor menu on the A9, The ON -Speed is the time in seconds from 0-100% throttle. Im gonna start at 1sec and see if it looks/sounds right

Becuase Hitecs programmers are all muppets, a proper throttle curve is available in acro mode, but not glider mode And Acro mode has no crow/camber menus.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 12:10 PM
GER 3788
Joined Feb 2012
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@tzeentech: you´re really making much effort to misunderstand my message

What I wrote, was exactly what you are saying! So it is great to have cheaper components for 6s and below setups. But nobody can discuss away that the >6s setups are much more effective and less stress for ESC and Motor. You´re then using the ESC in the sepcified range(Warranty???).

And when you´re flying competitions then you of course try to have good components, or have you ever seen Michael Schumacher going to a F1 Race with a bobby car?

By the way....I am wondering where to get a Neu 1512 with GX200 for 300€? Please tell me, I want to have another 5s setup....so many nearly new 5s packs lying useless around...
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 02:46 PM
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I will discuss that 10S setups are harder on equipment, on the lipo's to be precise. Since I went to 10S in 2012 I never spent so much money on Lipo's, trying to figure out which pack would at least hold up and get me some decent voltage under load, whilst still fitting in the fuse and having a moderate weight. Luckily in the end I found the Dinogy packs. Lipowise 5-6S was better, which makes sense from a volumetric perspective.

The only brand that seems to have made a remarkable improvement with >6S was Plettenberg, but that makes sense as I never found their 4 and 5S motors all that efficient. My 6S Neu motor was definately more efficient than those 40 and 42 Plettis, gained 2 laps by switching over.

Anyway, while we're on the subject of the ICE160HV, I thought I'd show what mine look like these days.
Rear caps 'reversed' so they now lie on the controller making it shorter (easier to fit the 2x5=10S packs in the Avio fuse now), changed all the wires to 10AWG from the original 8AWG and moved the front two backwards a bit so the controller can be soldered very close to the motor now. It weighs 90grams as shown on the pics, will be even lighter wenn all wires have the correct length.





Regards,
Gerben
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Last edited by Gerben; Dec 06, 2012 at 02:52 PM.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 02:53 PM
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Scotland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Golikov View Post
But if you plan to use the system in a competitive practice, it is a year of sports operating system 10C shows its economic efficiency, greater than 6S. Rotor magnets, the system operating at 220-310A (6S), lose their power is quite noticeable (data logger) after 70-100 flights. In the system of 10C, making about 100 flights on currents 180-210A, I do not notice a decrease in the effectiveness of the motor.
If you are talking about the motor I do not understand. Compare a Neu 1512 1.5D on 6 S with a 1512 2.5D on 10S. Same prop, same rpm, so same magnetic and mechanical losses. For the copper loss, resistance is lower for the 1.5D because there are fewer windings and they are thicker. The current is higher. If the copper filling is the same then the copper losses are the same as well.

It is the same for the battery. What matters is the volts per cell at the same power.For the same weight of battery and the same technology 6 fat cells should be the same as 10 thinner cells.

Where the 10S gains is in the wiring resistance, if you use the same length of wire of the same diameter, in the connectors, and possibly in the controller. But these are very small differences.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 03:42 PM
>8-)
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Derby, UK
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Shering View Post
If you are talking about the motor I do not understand. Compare a Neu 1512 1.5D on 6 S with a 1512 2.5D on 10S. Same prop, same rpm, so same magnetic and mechanical losses. For the copper loss, resistance is lower for the 1.5D because there are fewer windings and they are thicker. The current is higher. If the copper filling is the same then the copper losses are the same as well.

It is the same for the battery. What matters is the volts per cell at the same power.For the same weight of battery and the same technology 6 fat cells should be the same as 10 thinner cells.

Where the 10S gains is in the wiring resistance, if you use the same length of wire of the same diameter, in the connectors, and possibly in the controller. But these are very small differences.
So why are people spending loads of money on 10s? We've not seen any empirical data posted comparing drive efficiency (or did I miss that?).

Is 10s a fad? or just born out of the lack of 6s controllers (until Joe's new introduction).

What am I missing?
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 05:06 PM
Inglish Nub
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Joined May 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matze_Koelle View Post
@tzeentech: you´re really making much effort to misunderstand my message

What I wrote, was exactly what you are saying! So it is great to have cheaper components for 6s and below setups. But nobody can discuss away that the >6s setups are much more effective and less stress for ESC and Motor. You´re then using the ESC in the sepcified range(Warranty???).

And when you´re flying competitions then you of course try to have good components, or have you ever seen Michael Schumacher going to a F1 Race with a bobby car?

By the way....I am wondering where to get a Neu 1512 with GX200 for 300€? Please tell me, I want to have another 5s setup....so many nearly new 5s packs lying useless around...
I doubt that a normal pilot can see a difference in performance when flying B50 6l vs Pletti 9S Setup. Yes off course it's not so stressing for components but just do the maths - How many controllers do you get for the price difference of 600€?
In Europe you wont find NEU's at this price level because they are expensive to import. I'll also start competition flying in 2013 but at first I wont invest in 800€ powerplant.
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 05:14 PM
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United States, CA, San Diego
Joined Dec 1999
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10S setups are easy on the batteries and controllers--that is the primary advantage. Actually using the controllers within the manufactures rated current has proven to be a major improvement in durability. The 10S I have been using have been quite stable. Of course some of the brands of batteries are better than others for the high currents but on the whole the 10S packs run cooler than the 5 or 6S ones did.

I really see little down side to 10S and mostly advantages. I managed to even have our battery supplier make a special shaped 10S 2000 may pack that would fit in the B10 Avionik in the same footprint as the 6S packs did. http://www.neumotors.com/store/page4/index.html Others have also found solutions for the old planes. As I am sure you have seen the B12 was really designed for 10S use from the start.

Of course you can continue to use what you like and no one will stop you.

Steve Neu
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 05:51 PM
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Sydney Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzeentech View Post
I doubt that a normal pilot can see a difference in performance when flying B50 6l vs Pletti 9S Setup. Yes off course it's not so stressing for components but just do the maths - How many controllers do you get for the price difference of 600€?
In Europe you wont find NEU's at this price level because they are expensive to import. I'll also start competition flying in 2013 but at first I wont invest in 800€ powerplant.
Controller fire has definitely been the biggest problem from 2008-2010. I understand there were virtually no controller fires in 2012. For the 6S setups, this may be due to the YGE setups for CC I don't know why, maybe the firmware improved.

Over the past 8 years motors have become technologically obsolete over a 2 year cycle. In 2006 motors were designed for NiMh, in 2008 for 4S lipo setups, in 2010 for 6S lipo setups, in 2012 for 10S setups. The 4S setup was an attempt by the manufacturers to be backward compatible with 16 cell NiMh setups.

In the wider world high voltage is generally regarded as preferable to high current because of reduced transmission losses. Even in model planes high voltage controllers are more common than high current controllers although not necessarily at low weights and compact space requirements.
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