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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:32 PM
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Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LcJ View Post
The following study posted a short while back by Logan5 should be read in regard to your statements.

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE
MURDER AND SUICIDE?
A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND
SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE


About the Authors:

* Don B. Kates (LL.B., Yale, 1966) is an American criminologist and constitutional
lawyer associated with the Pacific Research Institute, San Francisco. ....

** Gary Mauser (Ph.D., University of California, Irvine, 1970) is a Canadian criminologist
and university professor at Simon Fraser University, Burnaby, BC Canada.......

We gratefully acknowledge the generous contributions of Professor Thomas B. Cole
(University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Social Medicine and Epidemiology);
Chief Superintendent Colin Greenwood (West Yorkshire Constabulary, ret.); C.B.
Kates; Abigail Kohn (University of Sydney, Law); David B. Kopel (Independence
Institute); Professor Timothy D. Lytton (Albany Law School); Professor William
Alex Pridemore (University of Oklahoma, Sociology); Professor Randolph Roth
(Ohio State University, History); Professor Thomas Velk (McGill University, Economics
and Chairman of the North American Studies Program); Professor Robert
Weisberg (Stanford Law School); and John Whitley (University of Adelaide, Economics).
Any merits of this paper reflect their advice and contributions; errors are
entirely ours.
unsurprisingly, not a single gun-control advocate on this forum bothered to read it ... maybe they will this time around.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:35 PM
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Joined Mar 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve85 View Post
You want to try that one again? Maybe I'm thick, but I ain't followin'...
The chances of dying by a gun is greater in a home with a gun is much like the chances of dying froma knife wound is greater in a home with a knife.

Either way, it says nothing, means nothing, and does not address the root of the problem, only a symptom, which is completely unrelated to the availability of weapons.

You see, some of us have spent time thinking critically about certain sociatal problems and realize that drugs don't make drug addicts and guns don't make murdereds.

I have over 20 guns in my homes, so I guess my chances of being murdered by a gun is 2 billion percent higher I suppose?
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:35 PM
The "pro" in procrastination
Steve85's Avatar
Canada, ON, Kingston
Joined Mar 2004
2,899 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by LcJ View Post
The following study posted a short while back by Logan5 should be read in regard to your statements.

WOULD BANNING FIREARMS REDUCE
MURDER AND SUICIDE?
A REVIEW OF INTERNATIONAL AND
SOME DOMESTIC EVIDENCE

Ah. I stand corrected. You would take comfort from the murder rate in the Soviet Union while it was crumbling. I thought you were taking comfort from the murder rate in the Soviet Union while it was at the height of its communist glory. My mistake.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:37 PM
I ♥ OpenTX
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Australia, New South Wales, Sydney
Joined Jan 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electroman7 View Post
Anyone arguing that firearms do not offer protection from man or beast is incapable of understanding what they provide for the average Joe. Criminals use guns in order to intimidate victims primarily. Not gonna get an unarmed man to actively challenge an armed man. A man with a knife or a brick is an armed man also.
And anyone arguing that flooding society with portable people-killing machines makes for a safer and/or better environment is incapable of understanding the big picture.

Talking about "criminals" postulates a criminal underclass - a notion which has been widely discredited by both science and the history of nations which started of as penal colonies (nope, can't think of any).

When you're talking about an individual, he or she may be a "criminal". But when contemplating 300 million people, or whatever youse are up to these days, the notion that gun policies somehow ought to take into account how "criminals" behave is really quite ludicrous. A significant percentage - which equates to millions of people - are stressed by their circumstances, by poverty, or by the violence around them.

Throw guns into the mix and the result is a no-brainer.

Take at least some of the guns away, and the result, when multiplied by 300 million, is also a no-brainer.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:39 PM
Now fortified with carbon
DLGjunkyard's Avatar
Canada, ON, Cambridge
Joined Apr 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve85 View Post
Bow and arrow? I keep seeing Steve Martin...

Seriously, guys, the elephant is right there in the room with you. On the other hand, you're probably past the point of no return; it's not like you're ever going to be able to police up 300 million guns, even if you were all willing.

Why not just accept that more gun-related deaths are "the cost of doing business" in a nation so gun-obsessed?
Bingo

Takes a split second to kill yourself with a gun , very little pain AKA easy way out
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:39 PM
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Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
Joined Feb 2001
312 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve85 View Post
Ah. I stand corrected. You would take comfort from the murder rate in the Soviet Union while it was crumbling. I thought you were taking comfort from the murder rate in the Soviet Union while it was at the height of its communist glory. My mistake.
Compare Luxemburge to Germany.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:41 PM
Reserved Parking
P-51C's Avatar
Joined Jun 2004
926 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
And anyone arguing that flooding society with portable people-killing machines makes for a safer and/or better environment is incapable of understanding the big picture.
.

Time to get rid of all the cars...
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:43 PM
Native American
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Joined May 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
unsurprisingly, not a single gun-control advocate on this forum bothered to read it ... maybe they will this time around.
That is a good read.

Quote:
In sum, the data for the decades since the end of World War
II also fails to bear out the more guns equal more death mantra.
The per capita accumulated stock of guns has increased,
yet there has been no correspondingly consistent increase in
either total violence or gun violence. The evidence is consistent
with the hypothesis that gun possession levels have little
impact on violence rates.127
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:50 PM
Pants Up, Don't Loot!
Park_Flyer's Avatar
United States, VA, Virginia Beach
Joined Jun 2005
1,770 Posts
Knives do not enhance our safety . . .
Motor vehicles do not enhance our safety . . .
Furnaces do not enhance our safety . . .
Electrical appliances do not enhance our safety . . .

In fact, each of these presents very real dangers.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 03:55 PM
Government is a fearful master
electroman7's Avatar
United States, TX, Farwell
Joined Feb 2001
157 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by H2SO4 View Post
And anyone arguing that flooding society with portable people-killing machines makes for a safer and/or better environment is incapable of understanding the big picture.

Talking about "criminals" postulates a criminal underclass - a notion which has been widely discredited by both science and the history of nations which started of as penal colonies (nope, can't think of any).

When you're talking about an individual, he or she may be a "criminal". But when contemplating 300 million people, or whatever youse are up to these days, the notion that gun policies somehow ought to take into account how "criminals" behave is really quite ludicrous. A significant percentage - which equates to millions of people - are stressed by their circumstances, by poverty, or by the violence around them.

Throw guns into the mix and the result is a no-brainer.

Take at least some of the guns away, and the result, when multiplied by 300 million, is also a no-brainer.
Have to disagree with you on this.. A person intent on doing violence will do violence with or without a gun.. Guns aren't the only things that kill people. They are more widely used is all. Take them away and violent people will kill with their hands if need be. A potential victim has to defend himself, no matter if he has a weapon or not. Otherwise he will certainly be a victim. Thinking it is more fair or better for society if a person just accepts his fate and gets mugged or robbed takes away justice and victims rights to be secure in their person. Allowing a person to defend himself without a weapon is just asking him to commit suicide. If people are allowed to be secure in their own person, they must be allowed to use an effective weapon such as a gun. Preventing this does not reduce violent crime, it might reduce the number of gun murders is all. Its just a question that society has always had to struggle with. Do we have personal security or do we live at the mercy of a criminal? There are no absolutes. Not all armed citizens will be successful defnding themselves. Fewer crimes will be committed if the intended victim can defend himself. The police aren't a consistant factor. They sometimes help and they sometimes are useless. The decision on whether a person should use a weapon to defend himself should be personal, not political or within the power of the state.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 04:04 PM
Not THAT Ira
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Coupeville, Wa
Joined Jan 2006
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 04:16 PM
The "pro" in procrastination
Steve85's Avatar
Canada, ON, Kingston
Joined Mar 2004
2,899 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by logan5 View Post
Compare Luxemburge to Germany.
Your paper suggests that Luxemburg's murder rate in 2002 was 9.01 per 100,000, compared to Germany's 0.93. Just Googling around, I discovered here:

http://www.nationmaster.com/country/...ourg/cri-crime

that Luxemburg had two (2) "manslaughters" in 2002 in a population of 474,000. That's a "murder" rate of 0.42, which is half the figure quoted in your study for Germany, and less than 1/20th the figure quoted for Luxemburg that year.

I don't know Kates and Mauser from Adam, but if their work contains this kind of error, they're either grossly incompetent or lying... neither of which lends much credible support to their conclusions.
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 04:21 PM
Gravity is patient............
Joined Mar 2006
1,953 Posts
I want to know how he can say:

"... without handguns they would both be alive today"


Wasn't it two days before that a man knifed his girlfriend to death, and then shot his father in the head with a crossbow, finished him off with a knife, and then knifed himself to death? Three dead and not a single shot fired from any kind of gun, let alone a handgun.

How does Bob Costas know these things? Is he superman? Did he travel into an alternate future without handguns and see that for himself?

Just wondering Bob?
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 04:22 PM
The "pro" in procrastination
Steve85's Avatar
Canada, ON, Kingston
Joined Mar 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wrightme View Post
No, I asked if you had data.
What's wrong with that data?
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 04:24 PM
Trons and Fumes
wrightme's Avatar
Fallon, NV
Joined Mar 2007
5,044 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve85 View Post
What's wrong with that data?
Just that there wasn't any data there. It was a study about studies. What data did YOU find?
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