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Old Nov 29, 2012, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by al harrington View Post
This may well be the case Martin but how often do we see this at the front end in competition? ......Just saying people should be aware that a lower spec mass produced boat may not be as competitive in class racing,...
Why it is always that when a Boat comes on the market that it is immediately set upon & Must Become a front end competition boat?

Mass Produced by it's very nature would suggest it should not be compared with purpose built craft.

This is the same in any R/C Hobby where competition is involved.. Just need to look at R/C Cars for that..

I find references to the MM a little naive when considering RTR usually refers to Ready to Run.

Yes you can race a boat if you so choose but the Majority of Skippers do not..

The MM is a Classic Example of this.. How many Kits Sold vs How many Racing..


When it comes to a Mass Production then a Product is Focussed on a Target Market..

There simply aren't enough R/C Yacht Racers out there to have a product geared directly towards them. That is why there are so many small Cottage Industries supplying the necessary bits & pieces & filling the void.

Competition always comes down to the RULE MAKERS not the manufacturer..



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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by waboats View Post
Why it is always that when a Boat comes on the market that it is immediately set upon & Must Become a front end competition boat?

Mass Produced by it's very nature would suggest it should not be compared with purpose built craft.
As mentioned in an earlier post

from an initial contact between Mike (RC Yachts) and Ripmax to develope a radio controlled racing yacht that is ready available at an affordable price. Working with Joysway and also bringing onboard Mark Dicks as designer and John Tushingham (Graphite) with his technical expertise we decided to base the new yacht on the RG65 class

As 2 of these were/are commercially involved with the MM class and its blow out from a simple cost entry level boat to a multi rigged over priced version, a set of one design rules by them would be a way of showing their intentions for this boat to avoid a similar problem. It will be pushed as an entry level boat suitable for racing and newcomers looking to race for the first time should be aware that as an outright RG65 they may not be as competitive as hoped without modification.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:36 AM
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Hi Guys
I have read your comments with great interest and thank you for your input.
This has been an on-going project with Ripmax and Joysway for over a year as we saw the need for an available and affordable radio yacht that performs to a high standard for the racing skipper. For this reason I brought on board Mark Dicks for the design and John Tushingham for his technical expertise.
After communicating with Joysway and specifying the technical requirements of the yacht we were pleasantly surprised as to the quality of the prototypes that we are now testing. The first two were slightly heavy but the third one is now 100grams lighter - the latest (the one in Johns video) is now just over 1.2 kg very close to the design weight.
Although we have high expectations to its performance, the yacht will be at least a 100g heavier that the normal competitive RG65 as of a similar design.
We are in the process of drawing up a set of rules for the Dragon Force so it can be used as a one design within the RG65 parameters.
We are working on some technical issues with Joysway at present and are hopeful the yacht will be available early in the New Year. The ballast is an alloy rather than lead as this will be available through commercial outlets - hence its size
Any of your comments will be appreciated.
For all the latest information on the Dragon Force please visit our website www.rcyachts.org.uk
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:50 AM
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Good points made by everybody, so let me try and give you some answers.

We were invited by Ripmax UK to develop a new racing sailboat to built in China by Joysway. We only had a short time to provide them with the finished design and sample boat, so we opted to base the boat on Mark Dick's current RG65 design ICE. We have kept the boat within the RG65 class rules to help establish the class in emerging countries where there is little or no supply of locally built boats.
Weight was always going to be an issue when comparing a plastic hulled boat to a custom built Carbon version, but working closely with Joysway the finished boat is a reasonable 1230g (approx). This is around 200g more than the full carbon version, but on the water the difference in speed is closer than you might expect.
When we know the exact final spec of the production boat we will be in a position to draft a set of rules for the Dragon Force to act as a Restricted Class, but still able to sail in the Open RG65 races. The only allowable changes to the standard boat will be such things as replacing standard string with better quality item such as Dyneema. These changes are only to improve the durability and reliability of the boat for a better ownership experience.
The standard rig is a full sized, low aspect, RG65 rig with carbon spars and a ball-raced gooseneck. Obviously, to race effectively in all conditions smaller riga are needed. We will draft an outline shape for two smaller rigs. Spars and rig fittings will be restricted to standard Joysway components (all of which work perfectly well), whilst sail manufacture will be open to anyone, professional or amateur, provided they are within the sail dimensions laid out in the Dragon Force rules. We hope that other countries will adopt these rules.
It never looks windy in a video, but the day we shot that YouTube video it was very much top end conditions for the standard, full sized rig. As you can see, the boat sails very well, perfectly balanced. We did sail it against the carbon ICE sistership and in those conditions there was almost nothing in it between them - very encouraging! There will be a slight performance disadvantage in lighter winds, but I think you'll be impressed with it's overall performance.
So it should form the basis of a good entry level class and club racer when raced as a Restricted Class, whilst also not being totally outdone in an Open Class RG65 fleet.
But the best bit is the price! In the UK we are looking at a rrp of 165GBP, but an expected street price of around 150GBP!

John Tushingham
UK
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Welcome Mike and John. Thanks for your comments and thanks for your efforts to bring a boat to the masses. Could we have just a few more details, re weight, ballast fin length etc:
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:28 AM
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Hi Martin

Fin length is 320mm from bottom of hull to top of ballast bulb.
Ballast bulb is 552g. It's made from an alloy rather than pure lead, so it's a little bigger than normal. However, it doesn't seem to harm performance noticeably.
All-up sailing weight of the latest pre-production sample was 1230g with a 1000ma LiFe battery pack. The boat comes with a standard 4 x AA dry cell battery box, but I would expect most owners will opt to use a smaller rechargeable pack The rules will permit this).
The boat will also come with a basic 2.4ghz radio set with a waterproof receiver and a wooden boat stand.
The fin is a hollow aluminium extruded section. We would have preferred carbon but it was not possible at this price point.
The rudder is a plastic moulding with a good aerofoil section, 135mm in length with a 3mm stainless shaft.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by John Tushingham View Post
Hi Martin

Fin length is 320mm from bottom of hull to top of ballast bulb.
Ballast bulb is 552g. It's made from an alloy rather than pure lead, so it's a little bigger than normal. However, it doesn't seem to harm performance noticeably.
All-up sailing weight of the latest pre-production sample was 1230g with a 1000ma LiFe battery pack. The boat comes with a standard 4 x AA dry cell battery box, but I would expect most owners will opt to use a smaller rechargeable pack The rules will permit this).
The boat will also come with a basic 2.4ghz radio set with a waterproof receiver and a wooden boat stand.
The fin is a hollow aluminium extruded section. We would have preferred carbon but it was not possible at this price point.
The rudder is a plastic moulding with a good aerofoil section, 135mm in length with a 3mm stainless shaft.
Isn't it great when a question gets a straight answer from the horses mouth. It looks like some people will be scrounging broken CF helicopter blades for the fin, and a plastic rudder seems to be ok. I'd hazard a guess that some might like to see it 100-150 g lighter, but you've obviously got to face up to reality with making something commercially available at a price.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:27 PM
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Well done John and Mike. It is good to see the aspect of a class within a class is being addressed. With good rules I see no reason why your boat will not grow in strong numbers providing good racing. You have answered my concerns.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:29 PM
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I think it great that a manufacturer has come out with a boat that sails in a recognized class and not some odd ball side. And is doing there homework by reaching out to established designers and builders.
Will it be competitive ? Maybe. But say it is more of a middle of the class finisher, there can a special trophy for the first Joys way boat to finish the race, I have seen that done in a US1m regatta. Where a trophy was given for the first Swede Johnson designed boat received a trophy. So a race within a race.
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 03:33 AM
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Mike & John

Good to see you guys on Board giving out some valuable information.

With the 2,4G Radio & Servo's will they be easily replaceable with Standard Stuff.

Being a Tinkerer, I like the idea of making modifications & little adjustments here & there..

Are there plans to have some different parts (after market) made available, such as Lead Bulbs, Keel Fins, etc..


Cheers

John
MM Aus 137
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 07:51 AM
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Our intention is to allow replacement radio gear, but the standard set is good enough for those who don't want to spend any more.
Direct replacement parts will be available, but superior products such as smaller, pure lead bulbs and carbon fins will not be allowed if you want to stay within the restricted class rules. You can, of course, change anything if you want to race in the open RG65 class. When we get the production boats I'll be experimenting on one to strip it down as far as possible in weight to see how near it can get to a carbon boat. Even if you threw most it it away it would still be a cheep hull considering you get the radio gear as well!
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 02:11 PM
Kimo
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It is nice to see that there is someone that is attempting to make and sell a semi serious racing boat for those of us where all out racing is not the main reason for sailing. There will always be people that want to race when ever they sail. Wife stopped sailing on Sundays because they only wanted to race and would get upset aand pout untill another race started.
Some of the guys stopped sailing for that same reason and started sailing on Thursday instead and its a lot more fun and the wife now enjoys sailing again.
I guess what I am trying to say is that there are more fun sailiors than racers and again it is great to see a boat being made for us semi serious sailors. For those that want to tinker and change their boats to be faster , well more power to them. But we enjoy relaxing sailing with a race in the mix once and a while.
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 05:27 PM
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Very nice sailboat and it looks very water tite...
Reminds me of my Monsoon a little....
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by John Tushingham View Post
Our intention is to allow replacement radio gear, but the standard set is good enough for those who don't want to spend any more.
Direct replacement parts will be available, but superior products such as smaller, pure lead bulbs and carbon fins will not be allowed if you want to stay within the restricted class rules. You can, of course, change anything if you want to race in the open RG65 class. When we get the production boats I'll be experimenting on one to strip it down as far as possible in weight to see how near it can get to a carbon boat. Even if you threw most it it away it would still be a cheep hull considering you get the radio gear as well!
John

Thanks for all the Info..

Don't have any RG65's sailing here in West Oz (Mostly MM's) & that other IOM mob..

May change soon once a Cost Effective RG65 is launched..

More Power to the Little Boats...

Cheers

John
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Old Dec 10, 2012, 04:55 AM
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There is now a page on the Dragon Force on the Ripmax site showing more photos and announcing a retail price: 164.99.
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