HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Dec 04, 2012, 01:47 PM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
I've changed my mind on the directable thrust for steering.

The prop will be fixed and a small dipping rudder will be employed at the stern.

I'm hoping banking will induce a yaw effect for steering while on foil.
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Last edited by BluenosePacific; Dec 04, 2012 at 02:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Dec 04, 2012, 01:56 PM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,460 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluenosePacific View Post
I've changed my mind on the directable thrust for steering.

The prop will be fixed and a small dipping rudder will be employed at the stern.

I'm hoping banking will induce a yaw effect for steering while on foil.
It should if you have a reasonable tail... remember that the reason an airplane turns is kind of because of the tail, otherwise, when you banked, you wouldn't turn, you would just slip sideways.

You are gonna need some wicked powerful servos for this - nothing from the RC world would probably work.
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 04, 2012, 01:58 PM
Cranky old fart
Balr14's Avatar
Germantown, WI.
Joined Oct 2007
21,486 Posts
My brother-in-law uses 7 big servos ganged together for the rudder on his 40% planes. They generate a lot of force, something like 150lbs total.
Balr14 is offline Find More Posts by Balr14
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 04, 2012, 02:44 PM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
The keel and canard act as a tail.

They are symmetrical foils.

I am a pilot.

A plane turns for a number of reasons but the ball and needle tell all.

Like a bicycle, it's about balancing centripetal forces and vectors.

But lets not get distracted with that.

Hitec makes a servo that I believe will fit the bill.

The foils are mostly balanced in their pivot point so loading wont be as high as you may imagine.

Also, the angles of attack wont be that great either.

Now, where to start on planning this board...
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 04, 2012, 07:30 PM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
[QUOTE=jasmine2501;23439351]It should if you have a reasonable tail... remember that the reason an airplane turns is kind of because of the tail, otherwise, when you banked, you wouldn't turn, you would just slip.

Thank you 2501.

When I initiate a turn, banking would be natural BUT the "board" is going to do it's job and keep the thing bolt upright, no?
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 04, 2012, 08:18 PM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
Would I be well advised to start a dialogue on the "WiiTOL, MultiWiiCopter based VTOL software" group or should we continue here in the helicopter department?

Balr and 2501, are you active there as well?

Please advise.

Thank you.

-Tom
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 04, 2012, 11:15 PM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,460 Posts
[QUOTE=BluenosePacific;23442330]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
It should if you have a reasonable tail... remember that the reason an airplane turns is kind of because of the tail, otherwise, when you banked, you wouldn't turn, you would just slip.

Thank you 2501.

When I initiate a turn, banking would be natural BUT the "board" is going to do it's job and keep the thing bolt upright, no?
This is the art of what you're doing... boat building is an ancient human art which will never be perfected. It is a thing of beauty which will be your creation. Do you want the thing to bank so the humans don't fall out? If that is a requirement then that's how you craft the thing. Your control system, axes you choose to stabilize, and methods of doing so are all under your control, and finding the perfect combination of all that is your art.

When you fly a quad copter, which is an aircraft actively stabilized in all axes, it doesn't (usually) feel like flying a robot, it moves and feels organic, like a natural aircraft. Sometimes though, your control setup makes the aircraft feel robotic, not natural, and that's a common complaint about tail gyros on helicopters. Since your dealing with a heavier fluid, and different mechanics, the details of how to effect a natural feeling are up to you. That's why we are suggesting ultra programmable solutions.

I don't participate in the multi copter forums, I'm not a tweaker, just a pilot just getting started with quads. I've been a computer programmer for 25 years though, and I'm mostly a numbers programmer... math, science, financial. I've also done some robotics, and a little FPV flying, but quad copter programming doesn't interest me because I think the problem is mostly solved and were just keeping up with technology now. However your project interests me... it's a whole new thing in active stabilization systems.
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 01:03 AM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
Well, 2501, sounds like you're my new best friend!

Thank you for your passion, I appreciate your sincerity.

I'm going to review your recent posts and act accordingly.

What else can I do to get started?

-Tom
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 01:05 AM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,460 Posts
Do some research and find out If anyone else is doing something similar. Always best not to reinvent things

I also suggest making a model of your ship first, since it's lots cheaper in mechanical costs and hospital bills too
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 01:40 AM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
I've been designing, dialoguing and researching this for close to two years.

To the best of my knowledge, nobody is doing anything like this, not even close.

I've approached universities thinking this would be a great project... nothing.

I have just picked up the 20' hull.

By Monday, I'll have the main strut, fore and aft foils from the main rotor of a Robinson R-22 helicopter and tail rotor from the same for the aft wings and from a Bell 206L for the forward wings.

Thus far, zero dollars which is good as I'm unemployed. I tend to work seasonally but anything can happen.

I am an accomplished mariner with an extensive and varied background including five years with the Canadian Coast Guard working in Search and Rescue.

What I'm trying to say is:

1) Don't worry about me as a test pilot on the water, I'm very safety conscious.

2) I'm not interested in spending the time or money building a model. I've built lots of stuff from scratch and my design/build history is favorable.

What I would like to incorporate is abundant adjustability.

That said, it's the electronics that are my weak point and what I need your help with the most I believe.

I am keen to learn. The gyro 101 blurb was brilliant. I have fundamental knowledge of electronics but nothing recent or applied.

What board are you proposing? I do want huge adjustability/flexibility.

Oh, and I'm a terrible speller and can't get spell check up on my Samsung Galaxy Tablet...
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Last edited by BluenosePacific; Dec 05, 2012 at 01:48 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 11:40 AM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,460 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluenosePacific View Post
Oh, and I'm a terrible speller and can't get spell check up on my Samsung Galaxy Tablet...
Squeeze the keyboard with your fingers, and it should come up with a dialog box asking what keyboard you want to use - pick Swype. If it's not an option, go get it from the store. http://www.swype.com/

So I guess what I'm wondering now is whether this type of ship has ever been built before. Are you looking at electronic stabilization because you know that this design is unstable, or is that just an assumption?
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 11:57 AM
Cranky old fart
Balr14's Avatar
Germantown, WI.
Joined Oct 2007
21,486 Posts
I am relatively new to multi-blades as well. But I have now built two with MWC boards and one with a KK2 board. I am somewhat active in the multi-rotor forum, though often as the student, not the teacher. I am also a programmer by profession. But, I work primarily on mainframe operating system software (storage management and database interface). My PC programming skills are not great, but I can manage.
Balr14 is offline Find More Posts by Balr14
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:16 PM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
2501,

Thank you.

"squeezing" the keyboard, lol, two fingers drawn together on the board? Does nothing but make a bunch of letters.

In my OP, the video shows Ray Vellinga trying the buoyant bulb in several different configurations.

It's too unstable for flight.

I have spoken with him, he feels my design is sound and thinks it will be a breakthrough.

Even if he's overly optimistic, it's worth a try.

I have an engineering background and a sound knowledge of marine applications.

Balr,

Thank you.

The more heads the better as far as I'm concerned.

I appreciate your input.

Now, clarification: when I say I need help with the electronics I've realized what I really mean is the software and all the flipping lingo, terminology, jargon, double-speak, nomenclature, slang, gibberish...

So, to reiterate: I don't want to redesign this I want to figure out fly by wire combined with automated stabilization if that's an okay term to use.

Clarification: Another big reason I don't want to build a model is water doesn't scale well. Renolds numbers get involved and direct scaling is challenging. We'd likely be best to go 1/4 scale or bigger and at that point I may as well just go full scale. Hope that's okay with you 2501.

I would think a first step would be to determine the control variables and their relationships to one another, no?
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Last edited by BluenosePacific; Dec 05, 2012 at 02:26 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 02:21 PM
Mariner BC Canada
BluenosePacific's Avatar
Joined Feb 2012
195 Posts
Holy crap man, you guys have like over 35 000 posts between the two of you!
BluenosePacific is offline Find More Posts by BluenosePacific
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 05, 2012, 04:13 PM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,460 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BluenosePacific View Post
2501,

Thank you.

"squeezing" the keyboard, lol, two fingers drawn together on the board? Does nothing but make a bunch of letters.
Yeah that is supposed to bring up the "input type" selection, but thankfully there is a more explicit way to do it (at the bottom). The page here also tells a little about activating predictive text, which sort of helps with spelling. The other thing I did was I removed the "Internet" application (you can't uninstall it but you can hide the icon) and I installed Chrome, which has spell-check for any input windows.

http://www.samsung.com/us/support/Su...7&fm_seq=32495

I have the 10.1 Galaxy and the Epic 4G phone - love them both... but the phone is actually easier to Swype with because it's small, and I prefer an actual keyboard for the tablet. This will probably work for you...

http://www.samsung.com/us/mobile/gal...ECR-K14AWEGSTA
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Question How can I use the stabilization expander with 2D/3D stabilizer? wazoo22 Eagle Tree Systems 1 Oct 23, 2012 01:30 PM
Discussion Best video stabilization I've seen yet! Deadstick 8409 Aerial Photography 4 Sep 01, 2012 06:24 PM
Discussion What is the best stabilization system for the CineStar Gimbal? Tarro Aerial Photography 10 Aug 10, 2012 05:50 PM
Discussion What is the best OSD with stabilization? Eric Tessmer FPV Talk 4 May 28, 2012 06:46 PM
Discussion Best stabilization software JZSlenker Hoverfly Technologies 14 Apr 23, 2012 08:34 AM