Originally Posted by finguz

But if there were no clones then everyone would be buying align kits

If there were no clones, many of us wouldn't be flying helis at all. My VWinRC had defective parts out of the box, but even if i were to include the cost of the replacement parts, the TX, the RX, the Batteries, and the Electronics. The cost is still half that of an Align ARF.

Originally Posted by old4570

So many seem to assume everyone wants to 3D ? or that the heli needs to be 3D ready ? Even many a thread started by noobs asking for help setting up there firtst heli , get advice on how to set up for 3D ? Whats with that ?

Because 3D mode is symmetrical so the configuration values are more consistent across different helis and transmitters. Once it's setup for 3D, it's easier to setup the TX for Normal mode. I think there's a thread or two here where the linkages had been physically setup for normal mode, that can be awkward for the transmitter if it doesn't know what you did since the transmitters Zero values no longer matches with the helicopters physical Zeros.

I'm not into 3D and don't do acrobatics on my GeniusCP but i always fly it in 3D mode especially when it's windy.

Originally Posted by old4570
So many seem to assume everyone wants to 3D ? or that the heli needs to be 3D ready ? Even many a thread started by noobs asking for help setting up there firtst heli , get advice on how to set up for 3D ? Whats with that ?

Originally Posted by Hajile

Because 3D mode is symmetrical so the configuration values are more consistent across different helis and transmitters. Once it's setup for 3D, it's easier to setup the TX for Normal mode. I think there's a thread or two here where the linkages had been physically setup for normal mode, that can be awkward for the transmitter if it doesn't know what you did since the transmitters Zero values no longer matches with the helicopters physical Zeros.

I'm not into 3D and don't do acrobatics on my GeniusCP but i always fly it in 3D mode especially when it's windy.

Nah....

It is mainly ignorance to the fact that mechanical set-up and electronic set-up are not the same. Add to that a healthy dose of "that's how the Pro's are doing it so that's how I am doing it", and blend in the nowadays computergeneration attitude that you can compensate virtually any imperfection with massive computing power (translate that as: you can compensate a mechanical less perfect set-up with digital servo's and lots of other electronics).

But 30 years of flying helicopter shows me, that if you want 3D, there's nothing but 3D settings. However, if you want to fly sports or scale, a helicopter mechanically set up to do so, actually flies better, mechanically last longer, and does so with a cheaper set-up.

This because the 3D set-up does set higher requirements to servo's and their accuracy, ditto for the tail set-up and the drive train.

I has little to do with compatibility with your tranny settings, because there's the trick: you can set up your tranny any way you want it! (if not, you have the wrong tranny). You should not adapt your helicopter to your transmitter and your transmitter to your flying style, rather the other way around, set up your heli to your flying style and your transmitter to suit your heli. That's what that programmable stuff is meant for, not the other way around!

It is of course everybodies own choice, but you can rest assured, that 3D settings have NO advantage over sports set-up, other than having the possibility to fly 3D if you're up to it. NONE whatsoever. Not in reliability, not in fine-control, not in performance, not in longevity, not in the price of your components.
On all those points a true sport/scale set-up scores better.
A 3D set-up only scores better at 3D.

Brgds, Bert

What's you're definition of a Sports setup then? I'm just going with the Align manual. On it, 0 pitch of the heli is set to match the zero pitch on the transmitter. But the ones i've seen where the helis have been mechanically set, physical zero pitch on the blades ends up becoming -100 on the transmitter.

A scale/sport set-up utilizes maximum possible servo throw for the typical most used pitch range (say, 0 to +8 on really large heli's, -2 till +9 for a medium to large heli, -4 to +10 for a smaller one like the 450 sizers) and similarly, uses the maximum possible servo throw for the cyclic range you would typically need.
In effect, this means if you use for example Expo on cyclic, you are heading in the wrong direction, better to sort that with either different length of ball link ratio on inner and outer ring of the swash, or just by honing your fine control.

What those exact values are, slightly depends on your own preferences, your helicopters size-to-weight ratio, your choice of blades and head, your fuselage and its aerodynamic and physical influences etc etc....

It cannot be unambiguous prescribed in a single manual for all helicopters.

3D settings can, it's like the "one size fits all" baseball cap That is why so many manufacturers recommend them... just to get rid of all the fuzz

But that doesn't mean, sports/scale settings are difficult. They just require some basic logic thinking and a minor but fundamental understanding of how a helicopter works. (please do not get me wrong, I am NOT saying that all those 3D guys do not have that understanding....)

It used to be, that helicopters would be mechanically designed to make those settings possible without too much problems, but nowadays helicopter designs heavily lean on the adjustment facilities of modern transmitters so sometimes i can be a bit of a hassle to get a good set-up.

Zero pitch should NOT be located at -100% of pitchstick, also not in a sports/scale set-up, unless you are flying really large helicopters (over say, 7 ft rotor diameter). Those do not really handle negative pitch well....

For a typical good sports/scale set-up it is very likely you have to play with servo horn lenght, different lengths of swashplate inner and outer ring ball links and sometimes even with the linkage ratios in the rotorhead itself

But for 450 sizers, basically, if you choose one hole shorter on the servo-horns compared to recommended 3D set-up, and shift rod lengths to achieve -4 to +10, then set your pitch curve to have +5 at midstick, you are basically in the ballpark.

The rest is finetuning "till it feels right", basically, and that is different for every fuselage, and for every pilot.

Oh, and however I admit that the last time I looked in an Align manual is a fair number of years ago, at that time it still also gave a recommendation of a sports/scale set-up with a pitch range not having 0 degrees at midstick,and so did the manuals of my cheap chinese "unpronounceable name brand" clones more recently.

Brgds, Bert

Originally Posted by Brutus1967

Oh, and however I admit that the last time I looked in an Align manual is a fair number of years ago, at that time it still also gave a recommendation of a sports/scale set-up with a pitch range not having 0 degrees at midstick,and so did the manuals of my cheap chinese "unpronounceable name brand" clones more recently.

Brgds, Bert

Yep, on 60% midstick. But that's relying on if you've set up both TX and heli to have the same zero. When leveling the swashplates, you're in effect configuring it in 3D mode since both high and low values have to be symmetrical. If the TX says 0, it expects the heli to set its blades to zero pitch. But the ones i'm talking about are set up in such a way that if the TX were to say "I want 0 pitch", the heli sets its pitch to 9 degrees instead. Then when he comes to the forum and asks why his heli's acting weird or unmanageable, we find that it's because he had physically set up the links to work in normal mode and it's conflicting with his other settings.

I think he is setting up more for scale and for that your swash needs to be zero, but the pitch don't. On a scale set up you can have your swash set to a point on a 3D bird would give you -12, on his it's set to be only -4. This gives him mechanically much more resolution than you would get by setting everything up for 3D or what has come to be normal.

Scale actually requires everything to be much more perfect in some ways than 3D. Guys that can't get the tracking right is mostly something out of balance. Well most people that only do 3D will tell you to up the head speed and use harder dampers. This is not fixing the problem just masking it. Try running your head speed at 1600 on your 450. If one thing is out of balance your heli will be all over the place.

Originally Posted by Hajile

Yep, on 60% midstick. But that's relying on if you've set up both TX and heli to have the same zero. When leveling the swashplates, you're in effect configuring it in 3D mode since both high and low values have to be symmetrical. If the TX says 0, it expects the heli to set its blades to zero pitch. But the ones i'm talking about are set up in such a way that if the TX were to say "I want 0 pitch", the heli sets its pitch to 9 degrees instead. Then when he comes to the forum and asks why his heli's acting weird or unmanageable, we find that it's because he had physically set up the links to work in normal mode and it's conflicting with his other settings.

Now.... I have an engineering degree, am chief engineer on a ship, have a vast hands-on experience in adjusting controllers of both analogue and digital nature, and I am 30 years in RC helicopters, having seen and first-hand experienced the transfer from adjusting your helicopter with servo horn lengths only to the full electronic set-ups of nowadays from the moment they came availlable. And to be honest, I have not the faintest clue what you are talking about here.

What do you mean by: the TX and heli to be set up to have the same zero????
What do you mean by "when levelling, things have to be symetrical" ????
Zero is were YOU set it.... the tranny doesn't know and doesn't need to know. Not now, not ever.

Levelling a swashplate, is also some very overrated issue.... What if I tell you,that I have not EVER levelled a swashplate in the way as meant by you, in 30 years of flying RC helicopters, and I have never experienced any problems with that? Still all my helicopters, even the multiblade ones without any FBL, fly straight and level, HANDS OFF.....

Symetrical min and max pitch? why? Who says so? I tell you who: the people that nudge you towards FBL.... most likely the people that have a commercial interest in you buying their newest set, and the next upgrade, and the next, and the one after that..... In other words the people who produce your manual....

FBL set-ups make it IMPOSSIBLE to utilize mechanical optimal set-ups, because FBL takes over everything there is to take over: From stability to rotor response. But that is by no means an indicator that those set-ups are the most optimal mechanical set-ups.
If your average FBL system is programmed such a way that it needs the reference point of zero pitch at neutral servo position, that may be, and there is not much way around it if you intend to use such system. But if not, you are free to choose that point to be wherever you want it to be, and there are more optimal points than the neutral position of the servo.

Bottom line is that nowadays, a lot of people are blindly following manufacturers recommendations, because the technological "fashion" (it is not more than that, a fashion statement, like it is now a fashion statement to own an I-phone, and 30 years ago it was to have a Motorola cellphone) is to go in the direction of FBL, that does ONLY mean, that for an FBL set-up that is the most optimal, if not only possible set up.

If you want to draw a parallel: nowadays cellphones are in excess of 70 MB memory capacity in order to support games, music players, camera's, all kinds of "Apps" and what not.... but that does not mean you need 70 MB just to make a telephone call..... Unfortunately that kind of reasoning is common for most people nowadays. But similar to Steve Jobs first selling you the very appealing idea of owning an I-phone, he does not really care for your wellbeing or convenience in communication, but to get you hooked as a lifelong customer of all related apps, songs, books and other stuff you have to pay for.

To be honest: if I was a manufacturer of Helicopters in the 3D range, or for that matter, a manufacturer of FBL stuff, I would also keep my mouth shut about alternative ways of setting up a helicopter.
As it is, I am a semi-professional instructor specialized in manual flight, and I advertise "old school set-ups"

Brgds, Bert

Originally Posted by mhills51

I think he is setting up more for scale and for that your swash needs to be zero, but the pitch don't. On a scale set up you can have your swash set to a point on a 3D bird would give you -12, on his it's set to be only -4. This gives him mechanically much more resolution than you would get by setting everything up for 3D or what has come to be normal.

Scale actually requires everything to be much more perfect in some ways than 3D. Guys that can't get the tracking right is mostly something out of balance. Well most people that only do 3D will tell you to up the head speed and use harder dampers. This is not fixing the problem just masking it. Try running your head speed at 1600 on your 450. If one thing is out of balance your heli will be all over the place.

Darn it Mr Hills, you can put it a lot clearer (and shorter) than I can, but you are hitting the nail on the proverbial head!

Brgds, Bert

Originally Posted by Hajile

If there were no clones, many of us wouldn't be flying helis at all. My VWinRC had defective parts out of the box, but even if i were to include the cost of the replacement parts, the TX, the RX, the Batteries, and the Electronics. The cost is still half that of an Align ARF.

And you have a winrc still at the end of the day, not an align. Which might be okay, I don't know about winrc, and can only speak for my experience with an exi clone (a stance I never changed from, and I stated earlier on in this thread). My exi 450 was about half the price too (of an align kit) and it flies decently but nothing like my align rex.

If/when people here buy an align kit, you will see the difference too! I feel it's worth more than double the cost, or inversely the clone isn't worth half. Maybe it is for the fun of it anyway, I will say that. But it's not fun having to search every detail of why my exi tail binds when the grips are tight, or why my main gear is wobbling like heck, or why my tail holds like crap because of the crappy belts exi gives you... Or why my shafts aren't straight from the factory and I'm thinking that I did something wrong setting everything up... what do they do? buy bent shafts that previous owners threw away?

If there were no clones, we would have done what we all should have done on the front end (and I regret not doing, and heard many more people regret as well), bought an align. Minus, of course, people with enough dough to buy a more expensive heli than align.

I agree, whoever said it, get what you can afford... but in no way is it a wiser decision to go with a clone, IMO especially for your 1st cp heli experience.

Old4570, I don't by any means, think it has anything to do with 3d flying. But it definitely does help if you plan on 3d flying.

Well.... I do not own Aligns, only two 450's based on "unpronounceable name brand" chinese Alig clones.

They work for me, and they have worked for me from the start. But I have 30 years of RC helicopters behind me, so I spotted a lot of things even before the first spool-up ....

Bottom line, those clones CAN perform fairly OK, but I would NEVER recommend them to newbies....

Why? simply because I would be overwhelmed by those newbies standing at my door (literally) asking me to PLEASE PLEASE help them out, fixing the problems they do not know a solution for.

They see me fly those clones, and they think, you can just as well buy a clone instead of an Align or whatever other reputable brand.

But folks.... that a clone CAN fly fairly reliable, does not mean that it will do so in the hands of a newbie?

So... it is ridiculous to state that clones are "just as good" or "it does not matter"
or anything similar. It DOES matter, and they are NOT just as good, and it is NOT adviseable. Nonetheless, a lot of people have achieved success with them.

The choice is up to every individual beginner....

Nothing more, nothing less....

Oh.... and to put things in perspective: I am absolutely NOT promoting 3D... NOT promoting "follow the pack".... just trying to teach people common sense and offer people the most reliable step-up into this hobby. And for that I do NOT recommend the most 3D suitable set-up, but the most reliable....

Brgds, Bert

Originally Posted by finguz

And you have a winrc still at the end of the day, not an align. Which might be okay, I don't know about winrc, and can only speak for my experience with an exi clone (a stance I never changed from, and I stated earlier on in this thread). My exi 450 was about half the price too (of an align kit) and it flies decently but nothing like my align rex.

If/when people here buy an align kit, you will see the difference too! I feel it's worth more than double the cost, or inversely the clone isn't worth half. Maybe it is for the fun of it anyway, I will say that. But it's not fun having to search every detail of why my exi tail binds when the grips are tight, or why my main gear is wobbling like heck, or why my tail holds like crap because of the crappy belts exi gives you... Or why my shafts aren't straight from the factory and I'm thinking that I did something wrong setting everything up... what do they do? buy bent shafts that previous owners threw away?

If there were no clones, we would have done what we all should have done on the front end (and I regret not doing, and heard many more people regret as well), bought an align. Minus, of course, people with enough dough to buy a more expensive heli than align.

I agree, whoever said it, get what you can afford... but in no way is it a wiser decision to go with a clone, IMO especially for your 1st cp heli experience.

Old4570, I don't by any means, think it has anything to do with 3d flying. But it definitely does help if you plan on 3d flying.

See , there is that perspective thing again .. Why does it help to plan on 3D flying ?
You simply dont seem to get it , some of us may enjoy watching 3D but have no real interest in trying to become 3D proficient .. or even hot dogging with a 450 .

One simply needs to turn on Youtube to see the 3D carnage .. 3D is terribly stressful on a heli , and requires top gear . So if you dont want to be in a cycle of repair and maintenance @ 3D level , nor the cost of maintaining a 3D ship , some people actually think through what there goals are and at what level they aim for . 3D is like competition level extreme !

Not everyone wants to be extreme ! My aspirations are to be a decent sunday flyer and little more , and if one day I was able to get into and maintain inverted flight , then that would probably be my Mount Everest .

So just because I fly electric helicopters , dont mean I want to nor need to 3D .
You guys - 3D is not something you need to aspire to , if you walk ? do you aspire to go to the olypics ? 99.99999999% of us dont !

@Old4570:

Maybe Finguz means:

"it sure helps to set-up for 3D if your goal, your intention, is to end up doing 3D"

instead of

"setting up for 3D helps you learning to fly RC-helicopter, period..."

Brgds, Bert

ouch Old, put the stones down, Sorry, I should have quoted you on what I was responding to instead of the approach I took of leveraging off of Hajile's requote of you (if that makes sense even ). I wasn't at all attacking your setup in ANY way, I respect what your saying about scale setups and listen.

What I was refering to is, I don't think considering or condoning a clone has anything to do with whether your trying to do 3d or not. I don't do 3d in real life, I 'm still learning everything, and still my align flies way better than my exi. The exi I spent too much money to get to fly the way it does now, which is decent but nothing like my align. As far as build quality, it speaks for itself.

Originally Posted by Brutus1967

@Old4570:

Maybe Finguz means:

"it sure helps to set-up for 3D if your goal, your intention, is to end up doing 3D"

instead of

"setting up for 3D helps you learning to fly RC-helicopter, period..."

Brgds, Bert

thing is 3D setup as you call it is the same for every heli and you can always adjust the pitch curve later to get any range of pitch you want
people need to learn to not fear high head speeds and run a fly throttle curve or use a gov you will find flying much easier when you have a high consistent head speed
and thats where FBL comes in you can run high head speeds and still have a super tame and stable heli
which goes back to the FBL needs to be setup with 0 pitch at center for at lest setup again after its setup you can change the pitch curve

another issue is you seem to fly some where that never has wind
since that will change how much pitch you need to hover so trying to aim for hover at center will NEVER HAPPEN unless its dead still
and then every heli will need different setup
with a "3D setup" you can use the SAME setup on any heli and it always works
the heli will fly like you expect it to no fussing around at the field adjusting links and TX settings same with HH tails just set 0 pitch center the horns done and fly
things change and move on i would say the vast majority of people are flying with "3D setup"
if all you want to do is fly circuits in FF get a plank
evolve or die
or your just another FOG at the field that thinks they know better

Originally Posted by Elios000

thing is 3D setup as you call it is the same for every heli and you can always adjust the pitch curve later to get any range of pitch you want
people need to learn to not fear high head speeds and run a fly throttle curve or use a gov you will find flying much easier when you have a high consistent head speed
and thats where FBL comes in you can run high head speeds and still have a super tame and stable heli
which goes back to the FBL needs to be setup with 0 pitch at center for at lest setup again after its setup you can change the pitch curve

another issue is you seem to fly some where that never has wind
since that will change how much pitch you need to hover so trying to aim for hover at center will NEVER HAPPEN unless its dead still
and then every heli will need different setup
with a "3D setup" you can use the SAME setup on any heli and it always works
the heli will fly like you expect it to no fussing around at the field adjusting links and TX settings same with HH tails just set 0 pitch center the horns done and fly
things change and move on i would say the vast majority of people are flying with "3D setup"
if all you want to do is fly circuits in FF get a plank
evolve or die
or your just another FOG at the field that thinks they know better

And a new player comes in from left field : An impolite one at that !
And how do you respond to such crap ?

Im not pushing my views on anyone - what im pushing for is some tolerance from some of the elitist ASS HOLES !