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Old Nov 22, 2012, 03:57 PM
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I agree with Old on so many levels.

I try to get the best price/performance ratio. No, I don't want cheap crap and I'm fully aware of the damage these things can do. I'm also aware that a lot of products in any hobby (not just RC) are completely overpriced and over-hyped. Suspension technology in mountainbikes reached a peak roughly 5 years ago, and yet every year the top-of-the-line products get 'uberduber shocks' marketed, roughly the same performance, and yet again a premium price. I do a thorough amount of research before I buy any product, looking particularly at reliability but also performance. Do I have to pay x for x performance when y does x?

Likewise, some of the 'high-end' products can fail just as spectacularly as the cheaper ones. Funny that most of the 'hand-built', premium mountainbike frames are by far the most frequent that break apart after a jump?

You're very quick to pay out cheaper clones, talking about the YEP in particular. I've had two of these in my planes, push them to levels no heli ever will, and have never had so much as an engine stutter. The reason people cry about them being out of stock? You cannot beat that value for money (just have a look at how many overpriced Castle ESCs have failed on people!).

Finally, and it's a point old made very well, some people just don't have that kind of money to throw around. 'Save up' is easy to say, but when you have an other half it's hard to ever justify spending an extra 500 bucks on a heli that could pay the rent for a month. I want to fly a larger heli, skill-wise I'm ready for it. I'm not a complete idiot and will take necessary precautions, but I'm not going to spend an extra grand just because of branding.

If you want my opinion, a guy carefully flying a clone that MIGHT have a chance of breaking is a lot safer than someone stick banging with a 700 class a few feet from onlookers. I wouldn't ever do that because I don't want that hanging over my head, skill or not. None of the higher-skilled flyers at my field do that either, they're aware of the dangers.

So which would you prefer, the cautious guy who cares about his model, or the over-confident rich kid who paid for the Goblin 700? I know which I'd want flying at my field....
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 05:31 PM
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Apparently you did not read my original post very well. I want everyone to THINK before they build/fly these Helis. They are dangerous....period. Adding to the danger by buying a cheap Heli and electronics just makes the problem bigger.
YEP ESCs, direct clones.....and I am sorry but a Heli stresses an ESC worse than a plane can with constant transitions.
I want people to buy decent Helis, equipment, AND fly responsibly.
I have a Goblin 700 and a Mikado XXtreme. Does that make me perfect....no.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 05:52 PM
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Given the fact that I've been researching my purchase for the last month or so, I hardly think I'm not thinking about the subject, and I doubt other would either. When you have a limited budget you have to give much more thought to what you buy.

No, helis may have high peak amps during transitions but the average amp draw is quite low. My EDFs are sucking upwards of 90 amps constantly. You have to only look at average EDF flight times to know they draw a lot more current than helis.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 06:48 PM
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Just realized something. Out of control helis are scary! I had a few, but it was not the equipment that was failing. While learning i had my share of learning points (or mishaps) where i was unable to regain my orientation.

This was on my 450. I think i would have dumped my bigger heli just as hard.
I'm willing to say large helicopers are not for newbies without being buddy-boxed, regardless of equipment quality.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by old4570 View Post
Ive seen video of larger [ cheap ] helicopters come apart in the air or on take off as head speed builds ...
the expensive helis can be just as bad

T-Rex 800e DFC Trekker OWB Failure (3 min 2 sec)
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 07:33 PM
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That's a very cool video, if only to see the forces the linkages/servos go through!
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by laughingstill View Post
Apparently you did not read my original post very well. I want everyone to THINK before they build/fly these Helis. They are dangerous....period. Adding to the danger by buying a cheap Heli and electronics just makes the problem bigger.
YEP ESCs, direct clones.....and I am sorry but a Heli stresses an ESC worse than a plane can with constant transitions.
I want people to buy decent Helis, equipment, AND fly responsibly.
I have a Goblin 700 and a Mikado XXtreme. Does that make me perfect....no.
Smells like BS to me! Sure, the YEP is HobbyKing's re-brand of a HiModel ESC, which is a knock-off of the YGE - but there is nothing to suggest that it's unreliable.

I don't understand this "expensive is better" attitude.

Take the automobile industry, for example. A few years back, someone managed to make a radar chip device that cost less than a dollar. This somehow made it feasible for the automakers to add parking and collision avoidance radar to vehicles, as evidenced by the little round bits you see on the fenders of many Lexus and other premium car models. So do you end up paying just a few bucks more - hell no, it's a several hundred dollar feature.

I recall the first Golf GTi, which had a trip computer option, giving you average speed and a few other things. It was a several hundred dollar option, but provides the same information that can be had from a $10 bicycle computer.

What's the difference between FBL controllers? They're just a few mems sensors with PID controllers, with no moving parts. So, as long as the soldering is OK, nothing but the software distinguishes one from another. Mikado did not invent the PID controller, nor the mini-mems sensor. How much longer can Mikado and others charge so much for their slightly better firmware? Not very long, I feel, if Chinese manufacturers are willing to respond to crowd-sourced user input on their controllers.

So you dare to fly a heli with a cheap servo. What's the difference compared to the name brand one? Maybe some slop in the gears, and maybe it wears out quite quickly. That's OK, because you might kill your servos in crashes before they die of old age, and you keep an eye on gear backlash and pots going bad. How is that so dangerous? Your pullouts from stall turns are not so crisp - wow, how dangerous is that?

By their nature, toy helis are not tolerant of component failure, so even if you're flying the most expensive heli you can buy, kitted out with all top-dollar electronics, you have to fly it as if something was likely to fail at any moment.

Most of the time, of course, a heli will crash due to pilot error, which is far more likely than component failure. (assuming a competent setup) I say just fly well away from people, and fly what the heck you want to. If you can only tolerate high cost components, go to HF.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:46 PM
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I think a pertinent argument: Turnigy lipos. I bet everyone had the same attitude when they first appeared: "they'll fail miserably, overall power is lower than x brand, battery life is low" etc. Now 99% of the lipos I see are Turnigy. Why? Because they're the best value/performance on the market. Not the best, not the worst, not the cheapest and not the most expensive, but the best value/performance.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2Doggs View Post
Smells like BS to me! Sure, the YEP is HobbyKing's re-brand of a HiModel ESC, which is a knock-off of the YGE - but there is nothing to suggest that it's unreliable.
YEP, due to it being an identical clone to YGE but running older firmware, is good if you don't use it in a high power set up and pushing the YEP to work hard.

A few months back, a member of HF from Australia ran a comparison test of features and performances among various highend ESCs. The article is technical but he done a fine job of explaining the technical details.

Here is a link to a very short post over at HF from another member who found a discrepancy between the real thing and the YEP clone.

http://www.helifreak.com/showpost.ph...96&postcount=1
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 09:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Znybar View Post
Given the fact that I've been researching my purchase for the last month or so, I hardly think I'm not thinking about the subject, and I doubt other would either. When you have a limited budget you have to give much more thought to what you buy.

No, helis may have high peak amps during transitions but the average amp draw is quite low. My EDFs are sucking upwards of 90 amps constantly. You have to only look at average EDF flight times to know they draw a lot more current than helis.
Actually it is the constant transitions in HS that kills ESCs the most. Cheaper or poorly designed ESCs have to work much harder to accomplish what a good GOV asks. Also in a plane you have a pretty good idea what the amperage draw will be in a given setup, in a Heli it is not always exact (and sometimes not close)
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 01:37 AM
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Which is why regardless you should always be getting ESCs with plenty of headroom (which I do).

You still haven't said anything about the Castle ESCs, every single thread I've read about them has seemed to be listing all the issues with those 'high-end' products.
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 02:10 AM
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You are completely proving my point. When you think a CASTLE ESC is high end, you HAVE been numbed down.
I personally would not use a Castle if it were given to me. YGE, KONTRONIK, Robbe/Hawk, and Hobbywing ESCs are reliable and only two of those could be considered "high end".
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 04:27 AM
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Castle ESCs are certainly at a premium price. Yet I know from forums that I wouldn't be seen using one. That's the point I'm making: the price doesn't justify the quality.
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 05:43 AM
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Castles are at best middle of the road. Kosmik is $800, YGE 160HV is $500 etc
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Old Nov 24, 2012, 09:29 PM
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Paying 800 bucks for an ESC is ludicrous unless you're flying 10k machines and above. There is no justification for those kinds of prices: it's marketing and branding. Same as Louis Vutton et al.
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