HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
View Poll Results: Are you interested in a Multiplex Sonic Liner clone?
I'd strongly consider buying one 76 54.68%
I would possibly consider buying one 31 22.30%
no interest 29 20.86%
other thoughts- explain in your post 3 2.16%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:26 AM
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Jurgen Heilig's Avatar
53859 Niederkassel, Germany
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
Please pass along the sales numbers and any information about the distribution and availability of the Dagonfly clone. You somehow know that it "flopped" so you must have knowledge of this.

I'm fairly certain that this clone was not readily available in North America at the very least.
You don't need sales numbers. The fact that the model does not show up in any RC forum worldwide says it all. As mentioned before, it may have never gone into production.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:26 AM
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Hungary, Europe
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Some guys still manage to buy an occasional original kit, mostly via ebay.
I've just bought one the same way, with the help of a friend here on RCG.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
most likely nobody will go through the expensive process of making those big moulds for production.
I don't think there is need for manufacturing moulds or moulding at all. The only way I think this could work is by means of 'soft RE' i.e. by re-drawing the plane in CAD and having it CNC cut from EPP.
Once it is re-drawn and modified maybe to some edgree, that would not be a Sonic Liner any longer, not even a clone, but a Boeing Sonic Cruiser model inspired by MPX's SL.

But let's not call in Chinese copyright violators, please.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:49 AM
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And they are hard to sell once you own one

I have put my Sonic Liner out for sale on several occasions on RC Groups and invariably I end up with someone on the other side of the continent who wants it, and even though I made sure mine can still be taken apart, since the outer wings and vertical stabs are removable you still have a fuselage that is almost 4 foot long and very wide at the back. as much as I would like to see this plane re-done, I just think that like the sonic cruiser it was ahead of the curve and it wont be coming back to re-visit us as a kit anytime soon


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
You don't need sales numbers. The fact that the model does not show up in any RC forum worldwide says it all. As mentioned before, it may have never gone into production.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pigeonflyer View Post
...
I don't think there is need for manufacturing moulds or moulding at all. The only way I think this could work is by means of 'soft RE' i.e. by re-drawing the plane in CAD and having it CNC cut from EPP.
...
I don't think you'd be happy with the surface finish of a CNC cut EPP version. Usually EPP models have much simpler shapes and they need additional stiffening structures. Last, but not least, EPP is not as cheap as EPS or Elapor.

Have a look at some EPP models here:

http://bormatec.com/

Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
I don't think you'd be happy with the surface finish of a CNC cut EPP version. Usually EPP models have much simpler shapes and they need additional stiffening structures. Last, but not least, EPP is not as cheap as EPS or Elapor.

Have a look at some EPP models here:

http://bormatec.com/

Jürgen
thats why the plane should be made by multiplex. if it is not a reproduction it wouldnt be a sonic liner, therefore i wouldnt be interested in a chin copy.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by BLAZE WON View Post
thats why the plane should be made by multiplex. ...
The plane definitely would not be re-produced by Multiplex. Their goal as a company is to produce kits which make profit - not losses.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
You don't need sales numbers. The fact that the model does not show up in any RC forum worldwide says it all. As mentioned before, it may have never gone into production.

Jürgen
Do you know what a rhetorical fallacy is, Jurgen?
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by BLAZE WON View Post
thats why the plane should be made by multiplex. if it is not a reproduction it wouldnt be a sonic liner, therefore i wouldnt be interested in a chin copy.
As has been previously pointed out, this kit was apparently reproduced once already, though not in significant numbers and possibly not with world wide availability...and certainly not recently enough to take advantage of readily available lithium batteries and affordable brushless motors....
....but another company was able to make a viable copy of this plane (out pf EPO presumably).

Secondly, Hobbyking offers beautifully made copies of the Easystar, Merlin, Funjet and others...so it's worth not overestimating the difficulty of copying some molds.

I find this kind of IP theft really upsetting but in the case of a "dead" model like the Sonic, this will likely be the only way to get one.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
Do you know what a rhetorical fallacy is, Jurgen?
Sure:

Quote:
Rhetorical fallacies, or fallacies of argument, don’t allow for the open, two-way exchange of ideas upon which meaningful conversations depend. Instead, they distract the reader with various appeals instead of using sound reasoning. They can be divided into three categories:

Emotional fallacies unfairly appeal to the audience’s emotions.
Ethical fallacies unreasonably advance the writer’s own authority or character.
Logical fallacies depend upon faulty logic.

Keep in mind that rhetorical fallacies often overlap. ...
Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:12 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
As has been previously pointed out, this kit was apparently reproduced once already ...
Secondly, Hobbyking offers beautifully made copies of the Easystar, Merlin, Funjet and others...so it's worth not overestomating the difficulty of copying some molds.
...
Where is the proof, that Walkera actually reproduced the Sonicliner?

As mentioned before. EasyStar, Merlin, FunJet etc. are bestsellers and they are copied in order to make profit. Nobody will copy a model which is not selling well.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Where is the proof, that Walkera actually reproduced the Sonicliner?

Jürgen
A [Edit] "sincere and generous contributor" posted something something earlier...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
I had no problem with Google finding a picture:

http://www.google.de/imgres?um=1&hl=...88&tx=78&ty=28

Jürgen
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
... You somehow know that it "flopped" so you must have knowledge of this.
....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
You don't need sales numbers. The fact that the model does not show up in any RC forum worldwide says it all. As mentioned before, it may have never gone into production.

Jürgen

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Sure:

"Logical fallacies depend upon faulty logic"

Jürgen

Well demonstrated! As soon as lack of evidence suffices as evidence of a lack, let us know.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:58 AM
Oh no, not again!
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Hmmm, not exactly the thread I expected. Jurgen, I'm clear you think the SL was a marketing flop and would be so today. Your opinion, got it. What I can't figure is why you want to keep bashing GTX. No one who had any experience with brushed motors and nicads can think that the power systems were "adequate" by today's standards. It's like comparing single channel, AM, rubber-powered escapement radio systems to Spektrum and saying they were adequate. Not to mention the aircraft world, real aircraft, not just models, is full of examples of designs that flopped through inadequate power plants.

GTX, you might want to quit taking the bait - it takes two to spar. The SL is a really interesting design, and like you, I think it would be a totally different model/market with today's power systems. You would probably be best off contacting manufacturers directly. Hope you have some success, this would be a fun one to have.

Regards,
Jeff
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Hmmm, not exactly the thread I expected. Jurgen, I'm clear you think the SL was a marketing flop and would be so today. Your opinion, got it. What I can't figure is why you want to keep bashing GTX. No one who had any experience with brushed motors and nicads can think that the power systems were "adequate" by today's standards. It's like comparing single channel, AM, rubber-powered escapement radio systems to Spektrum and saying they were adequate. Not to mention the aircraft world, real aircraft, not just models, is full of examples of designs that flopped through inadequate power plants.

GTX, you might want to quit taking the bait - it takes two to spar. The SL is a really interesting design, and like you, I think it would be a totally different model/market with today's power systems. You would probably be best off contacting manufacturers directly. Hope you have some success, this would be a fun one to have.

Regards,
Jeff
Thank you, Jeff. I appreciate the advice...and I think you're right.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
A troll posted something earlier...
Just because there is a picture, does not mean that the Walkera model #16 actually went into production. Quite often samples or prototypes get presented at fairs, but if there is no adequate response from the dealers, the project gets dropped.

I just wrote an eMail to Walkera to find out, whether model #16 actually went into production/sales.

Jürgen
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