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View Poll Results: Are you interested in a Multiplex Sonic Liner clone?
I'd strongly consider buying one 76 54.68%
I would possibly consider buying one 31 22.30%
no interest 29 20.86%
other thoughts- explain in your post 3 2.16%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
When these two models fly at the same speeds, the jet is a disappointment...
Unless we apply the scale factor, then both models are flying about the same factor faster than the original aircraft. We had already discussed that:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=165 ff.

This is getting very boring!

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
You'll have to compare the statistics to other planes of its type in the same time period ...
If you don't want to do those things, you're out of business in this thread and probably out of your depth anyway.
...
I don't have to do anything. You can either use the information I provided or leave it. It won't change the fact, that the Sonic Liner was never a popular model and most likely will never be a popular model.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Unless we apply the scale factor, then both models are flying about the same factor faster than the original aircraft. We had already discussed that:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=165 ff.

This is getting very boring!

Jürgen
Again, I'll go out on a limb and say that almost nobody wants to fly a jet model at scale speeds unless that's the pilot's specific intent for the model, like the helium filled indoor model you shared earlier.

You assume that you understand the desires of the market place but I strongly believe that you have that one wrong.

Sorry to hear that the discussion is boring for you. Many of us are very interested in this plane.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
Sorry to hear that the discussion is boring for you. Many of us are very interested in this plane.
I don't mind a "good" discussion. Going around in circles is however pretty pointless. How many of those interested in a Sonic Liner are really taking part in this discussion? Not very many.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:22 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
Again, I'll go out on a limb and say that almost nobody wants to fly a jet model at scale speeds unless that's the pilot's specific intent for the model, like the helium filled indoor model you shared earlier.
...
Many would like to fly at those scale speeds. Just read the comments to the video on YouTube. Countless requests from modelers who would like to buy one.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
I don't have to do anything. You can either use the information I provided or leave it. It won't change the fact, that the Sonic Liner was never a popular model and most likely will never be a popular model.

Jürgen
Are you using "fact" as in "tatsache?"
Perhaps something is lost in the translation because I'm entirely not sure how you are aware of facts about the future.

So yes, you're right that you don't have to "do" anything but if you're going to make a point, you have to make a point. If you think that the same conditions that may or may not have resulted in poor sales are still relevant you have to say so. Otherwise, this is an entirely fallacious argument. The burden of proof...or at least the burden of making an honest claim rather than trying to lead us on...is on you!

So far, you're just saying that something was true in the past, therefore it will be true in the future. False!

Someone disagrees and says that conditions have changed so x may no longer be the case.... and you reply with "but yes, it was true in the past therefore it will be true in the future!" It's exhausting.

Honestly, I wouldn't care what you think if it were not for the fact that many of us genuinely want this plane and your comments could actually wrongfully discourage a decision maker from taking a chance on this kit....[edit] and I think that's your goal.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
Are you using "fact" as in "tatsache?"
Perhaps something is lost in the translation because I'm entirely not sure how you are aware of facts about the future.
...
Honestly, I wouldn't care what you think if it were not for the fact that many of us genuinely want this plane and your comments could actually wrongfully discourage a decision maker from taking a chance on this kit....[edit] and I think that's your goal.
Correct. Past figures are facts and as I can't predict the future, I used "most likely" to describe a potential scenario.

Wow, I almost feel flattered that you consider me powerful enough to discourage a potential kit manufacturer. Heck, I suggested Multiplex to go for an updated Twin-Jet II (expert edition) and I am still waiting.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 10:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Correct. Past figures are facts and as I can't predict the future, I used "most likely" to describe a potential scenario.

Wow, I almost feel flattered that you consider me powerful enough to discourage a potential kit manufacturer. Heck, I suggested Multiplex to go for an updated Twin-Jet II (expert edition) and I am still waiting.

Jürgen
I didn't get the impression that you were expressing any uncertainty about the future success of the model...

Again, you have offered no "past figures and facts." !

...and no. I know you're not powerful but your sustained negativity (which I believe is unfounded) certainly has an impact.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
I know you're not powerful but your sustained negativity (which I believe is unfounded) certainly has an impact.
What you consider "negativity" is just "reality".

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=26

The only way to get rid of Sonic Liners was to sell them way below list price. As you probably have seen from my picture, I bought mine for €59.90.

If you don't want to believe my statement, that the Sonic Liner was a flop, why not start a poll about MPX models, i.e. which MPX model did you buy between 2003 and 2006?

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
What you consider "negativity" is just "reality".

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=26

The only way to get rid of Sonic Liners was to sell them way below list price. As you probably have seen from my picture, I bought mine for €59.90.

If you don't want to believe my statement, that the Sonic Liner was a flop, why not start a poll about MPX models, i.e. which MPX model did you buy between 2003 and 2006?

Jürgen

This is not a language barrier issue. This is deliberate.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
What you consider "negativity" is just "reality".

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=26

The only way to get rid of Sonic Liners was to sell them way below list price. As you probably have seen from my picture, I bought mine for €59.90.

If you don't want to believe my statement, that the Sonic Liner was a flop, why not start a poll about MPX models, i.e. which MPX model did you buy between 2003 and 2006?

Jürgen
What would this prove? At best, it could give a hint that it wasn't popular at the time. What does that tell us about 2013?

When this model came out, electrics in general were unpopular, expensive and poor performing.

7-8 years ago, a 2200mah 15c 3s battery was $60USD and a qualty 28mm brushless power system with 20A ESCs would have cost at least $200USD. For example I paid $65USD for my first inrunner in 2006 and $50 for the ESC. It was an Eflite 22mm motor and I treasured it!

We don't need another comment about the stock power system being adequate. yes, it would fly ok on the brushed motors but you should know by now that Americans like powerful model airplanes. Multiplex USA offers the "tuning" kits as their standard power systems here. We don't have time for "scale" flying. You're just going to have to take my word for that.

Regardless, I'll just reitterate that we're in two very different markets with differing tastes and differing availability of planes. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a tough sell in the USA if they were ever readily available.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 02:49 PM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
What would this prove? At best, it could give a hint that it wasn't popular at the time. What does that tell us about 2013?

When this model came out, electrics in general were unpopular, expensive and poor performing.
...
but you should know by now that Americans like powerful model airplanes. Multiplex USA offers the "tuning" kits as their standard power systems here. We don't have time for "scale" flying. You're just going to have to take my word for that.
...
Well, as you don't seem to believe me that the Sonic Liner was not selling well, a poll might give you a better understanding.

In 2003 Electric Flight was already very popular in Europe - even with dedicated model magazines for electric flight etc.

Do you really think in Europe we don't like powerful model airplanes too? You may need to widen your scope a bit here.

Have a look at the FAI records regarding speed or watch some of my videos on YouTube.

Tastes may differ regarding types of cars (trucks ), guns etc. but model airplanes? It is usually the same models which achieve top sales figures world-wide.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Well, the Sonic Liner isn't much bigger than the Twin-Star or the Twin-Jet and smaller than the Cargo or the Robbe Dash 7.
It is bigger than the Twin-Jet in both span and certainly length, and there is little point in comparing it to a Robbe Dash 7 or whatever unless you want to start talking about "popularity" again.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Of course you can devide between beginner models - intermediate models and expert models. Somebody who starts with an EasyStar can decide what he likes better - motor on or motor off - and then get a motor model or a glider model next (or both ). Whether the next model is a fighter, a delta, a multi-motor model etc. is up to personal preference.
Again, missing the point. The point is there is little point in dividing up aircraft into meaningless categories. All you wind up doing is getting yourself into argumentative trouble.

Yes, people have personal preferences. But many have personal preferences (aka "biases") which are purely based on misguided notions.

That being the same crowd that the industry needs to cater to in order to make money, I am starting to agree with your sentiment that this might not be a popular model. Not due to the merits of the model, but due to the shortcomings of the customers.


Quote:
Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
The basic lines and similarity to the Twinjet was unmistakable and I (as well as many others )no longer "saw" a large airliner ,but a sleek go fast exotic plane unlike any before it .Perhaps had MPX marketed the SL as a Twinjet on steriods instead,...It would have suceeded as such far beyond their expectations.
This is in fact how I look at the SL as well. It's just a larger Twinjet with a canard and a potentially convenient fuselage to pack goodies in.

There probably aren't any marketing tricks that MPX could have pulled to make the SL more successful given the community's dysfunction, which unfortunately carries on to this day.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GoatZilla View Post




This is in fact how I look at the SL as well. It's just a larger Twinjet with a canard and a potentially convenient fuselage to pack goodies in.

There probably aren't any marketing tricks that MPX could have pulled to make the SL more successful given the community's dysfunction, which unfortunately carries on to this day.
You are probably right .It's original design was as an airliner and thats how they marketed it .And as JH rightly pointed out that wasn't enough .Had MPX sought feedback from those who'd purchased it and developed it into something other than an airliner ,ie: a twin jet on steroids ...well that subject has been run into the ground ,so no real point is going to be gained re-hashing that ....But if some other manufacturer was to clone the SL kit and market it as a Steriodal Twin-Jet ,perhaps incorporating an FPV or similar platform as an option....
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 09:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Well, the electronic revolution has been happening since the late 1990s:

http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/electric-rc.html

Look, daddiozz managed to get his hands on three Sonic Liners, so it can't have been that hard to get one.

Jürgen
Factually correct (PDF),however as usual JH has failed to tell the whole story .My first true r/c plane was a Hitec Sky Scooter ,I believe I purchased it in '98 or '99.Its "speed control "consisted of 2 positions ..."on"(WOT) and "off".Not satisfied with that I returned to the LHS in seek of a speed controller ,I ended up with something similar to the first inset photo (on the left of this plate)It was designed for and came from an early r/c car ,but I managed to make it work after a fashion...

Comparing then "modern" electronics to todays electronics is like comparing a Ford Model "T" to a Bugatti Veyron ..even as recent as 2004 doesn't compare to today (photos 2-7 from MPX's 2004 catalog)...and li-pos were so new to MPX that they ended up on the back cover...


My first SL purchased in 2004 (NIB) 2nd in 2006 from another modeller as well as #3 in 2008 at a swap meet.Only the first one was purchased from a dealer ,after that one I never again saw one in a hobby shop.
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