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View Poll Results: Are you interested in a Multiplex Sonic Liner clone?
I'd strongly consider buying one 76 54.68%
I would possibly consider buying one 31 22.30%
no interest 29 20.86%
other thoughts- explain in your post 3 2.16%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:49 AM
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53859 Niederkassel, Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
I could have at that ,perhaps its a mental block problem ,I dunno ...every time I see the letters "H-e-i-l" strung together I immediately think "Hitler" following them ...
Appears to me, that there are more serious issues than just a "mental block". "Heilig" (= holy) has absolutely nothing to do with the Austrian-born leader of the Nazi Party.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Secondly, I am not discussing subjects I am not familiar with. As an aeronautical engineer and a seasoned RC pilot for more than 40 years, I am usually right about what I am saying (You are welcome to check any of my 18.000+ posts to find one, where I wrote something incorrect).

Really?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
When I present facts, i.e. 2 + 2 = 4, what's the point in long fruitless discussions why the correct answer can't be 3 or 5. I am an engineer and not a philosopher.
You have to cut us some slack here. Much of what you have stated is your opinion. These statements may feel like facts from your own perspective but without hard data, without us just trusting your "sense," these statements should not be regarded as facts.

Do you have sales figures for the Sonic Liner? No.

Do you know what their sales projections were to evaluate the relative success or failure of this model? No

Do you have sales figures for similar models for the early 2000s time frame by which to compare the relative success or failure? No.

Do you have any records of the marketing plan? Any market feedback analysis from pilots who flew the plane to understand what they thought of it? Any measure of unsatisfied demand for the model? No, no and no.

On the contrary, we know that the model stopped shipping to the US of A prior to 2006, before the electric revolution even hit full swing, thereby making your argument (for one of the largest markets at the very least) null.


Secondly, this discussion was intended to be on the topic of discussing interest in the future viablity of a clone of a model.

To that end, you have offered some reasons for your speculation. That's welcome and appreciated! You don't think a clone sold in 2013 is viable because of x,y and z. Great! As typically happens in discussions between people, several of us have expressed why x,y and z are probably not relevant and that for at least y and z, you are purely expressing anecdotal evidence and offering no facts and statistics...but you won't hear this.

So...I'm not going to say that your opinions are wrong but your engineering background isn't helping you understand logical structure of an argument. You bash philosophy but your neglect of philosophy is exactly why you're still here trying to make your case and why we're all exasperated by what looks like "obtusity" (for lack of a better adjective).

Regardless, you cannot be "right" about wether or not we should be interested in a clone of this plane. You cannot even be right regarding whether or not a Chinese (or other) company might consider making a clone. These are matters for which there are no facts unless your engineering education was related to time machines.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:15 AM
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United States, WV
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
. "Heilig" = holy

Jürgen
Well ,that explains a few things .I won't speculate or elaborate further ,lest I be accused of trolling.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:35 AM
Life-abstract=conformity
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddiozz
I know the USAF had developed the experimental XC70 as well.. with exactly 2 prototypes in existence
If your referring to the XB-70 Valkyrie, 2 we're built & 1 survives.
Featured 6 engines,articulating wing tips with which to 'surf' the mach shock wave (an idea that was re-discovered from some very early Russian scientist's writings;stumbled upon by an engineer on the Valkyrie project during the projects proposal phase IIRC) and an articulating nose/cockpit that would allow the pilots to see the runway during take offs & landings.
This was proposed to be a super sonic bomber.The entire program became obsolete when ICBM's we're realized.
Ooo that was fun.
Now this would be a great foamie.
Skies
Jay.
P.S.
Quote:
Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
Personally ,I don't think the man has a sense of humor or if he does its a warped one contrary to the rest of us ....And you are right ,I don't "care" about any punishment he thinks he might have meted out to me .According to my doctor ,I probably will be dead in 6 months or less ,What punishment could Jurgen or anyone else mete out to me thats worse than that .?In the end laughter is the best medicine ,and Jurgen is providing me with much ,mirth.
Sheesh,and your spending your time here on RCGroups!? Are you ready for the Big Flight ? Hoping all goes well daddiozz,your welcome to PM should the mood strike you.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post

Jürgern
post #448....it must be a sad day when a man cannot spell his OWN name right .
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 06:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AirBornOne View Post
If your referring to the XB-70 Valkyrie, 2 we're built & 1 survives.
Featured 6 engines,articulating wing tips with which to 'surf' the mach shock wave (an idea that was re-discovered from some very early Russian scientist's writings;stumbled upon by an engineer on the Valkyrie project during the projects proposal phase IIRC) and an articulating nose/cockpit that would allow the pilots to see the runway during take offs & landings.
This was proposed to be a super sonic bomber.The entire program became obsolete when ICBM's we're realized.
Ooo that was fun.
Now this would be a great foamie.
Skies
Jay.
P.S.
Sheesh,and your spending your time here on RCGroups!? Are you ready for the Big Flight ? Hoping all goes well daddiozz,your welcome to PM should the mood strike you.
My bad ,I have a foamie kit based off the Valkyrie its designated as an XC-70

pps.between inclement weather and adjusting to new meds sapping my strength,there isn't much else to do besides surfing the net and RCG presently.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
post #448....sad day when a man cannot spell his OWN name right .
Good catch!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Well, I never looked at the Sonic Liner as a Twin-Jet on steroids. I rather see it as an exotic Twin-Star alternative.



Jürgen
sorry ,I don't see the similarities...
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Well, I never looked at the Sonic Liner as a Twin-Jet on steroids.



Jürgen
not hard to see/imagine in a side to side comparison....
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:47 AM
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53859 Niederkassel, Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
You have to cut us some slack here. Much of what you have stated is your opinion. These statements may feel like facts from your own perspective but without hard data, without us just trusting your "sense," these statements should not be regarded as facts.

Do you have sales figures for the Sonic Liner? No.

Do you know what their sales projections were to evaluate the relative success or failure of this model? No

Do you have sales figures for similar models for the early 2000s time frame by which to compare the relative success or failure? No.
...
No model company is publishing sales figures. But do you really need those figures, when you can talk to the designer of the model and the marketing guys.

Have a look in RC forums in Europe and / or the USA and compare the number of threads/post about the Sonic Liner in comparision to the Twin-Star, Twin-Jet or others. A clear indicator of the popularity of a model.

Models which sell well and make good profit don't get discontinued for no reason.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 07:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
sorry ,I don't see the similarities...
I was not referring to similar looks, but similar technical data and flight performance:

Sonicliner - wing area: 42dm², weight: 1550g
Twin-Star II - wing area: 43dm², weight: 1500g

Both powered by two Permax 400, 6V and Günther props.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
On the contrary, we know that the model stopped shipping to the US of A prior to 2006, before the electric revolution even hit full swing, thereby making your argument (for one of the largest markets at the very least) null.
...
Well, the electronic revolution has been happening since the late 1990s:

http://www.rc-airplane-world.com/electric-rc.html

Look, daddiozz managed to get his hands on three Sonic Liners, so it can't have been that hard to get one.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:22 AM
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You ignored the majority of my post which make this comment pointless anyway...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
No model company is publishing sales figures. But do you really need those figures, when you can talk to the designer of the model and the marketing guys. ...
Ok...can we talk to them? I think many of us would love to ask questions.
Otherwise, we have to rely on your account of supposed discussions with these individuals.

Unfortunately, you're an engineer, not a news reporter nor a historian.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Have a look in RC forums in Europe and / or the USA and compare the number of threads/post about the Sonic Liner in comparision to the Twin-Star, Twin-Jet or others. A clear indicator of the popularity of a model.

Models which sell well and make good profit don't get discontinued for no reason.

Jürgen
Patently unscientific and probably irrelevant.

Furthermore, if you insist on using this data as your argument for why a clone shouldn't be produced, we're not going to do the work for you. You'll have to compare the statistics to other planes of its type in the same time period...then you'll have to make a case as to why these conditions apply to future viability.

If you don't want to do those things, you're out of business in this thread and probably out of your depth anyway.

Again, this is a speculation thread.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
I was not referring to similar looks, but similar technical data and flight performance:

Sonicliner - wing area: 42dm², weight: 1550g
Twin-Star II - wing area: 43dm², weight: 1500g

Both powered by two Permax 400, 6V and Günther props.

Jürgen
The information that I found (and noted early on in this thread) on these planes shows a 20% weight disadvantage for the SL from assembled kits running the same power system.

Regardless, even if you are right, it lends weight to daddiozz' argument since expectations of a sleek "jet type" model are vastly different than a high-wing/square looking plane. When these two models fly at the same speeds, the jet is a disappointment...
...which has been at the heart of the argument for a revival all along!
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 08:45 AM
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53859 Niederkassel, Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
Ok...can we talk to them? I think many of us would love to ask questions.
Otherwise, we have to rely on your account of supposed discussions with these individuals.

Unfortunately, you're an engineer, not a news reporter nor a historian.
...
Well, looks like you missed your chance (yet again ), as the designer retired last year. Apart from that, I don't think he would have been interested talking to you.

When it comes to technical data, I'd rather trust an engineer than a reporter or a historian.

Jürgen
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