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View Poll Results: Are you interested in a Multiplex Sonic Liner clone?
I'd strongly consider buying one 76 54.68%
I would possibly consider buying one 31 22.30%
no interest 29 20.86%
other thoughts- explain in your post 3 2.16%
Voters: 139. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
I don;t have the exact box specs but check out Jurgen's picture. . The wingspan on the Geebee is 20.1" or 510mm. The box is fairly compact for such a big plane. MPX does a superb job with packaging and there's no reason that a company cloning the kit wouldn't also clone the box.

Right on about the Bixler comment...that was what inspired me to start this discussion- if it was possible to clone an Easy*, why not clone other models? Why not clone the holy grail of discontinued MPX kits?
The box is approx. 1020 x 465 x 125 mm. Some of the newer Multiplex models are much better packed, i.e. the components are stacked in a protective foam cradle.

Why not clone other models? As mentioned before: Why would anybody clone something which was a sales flop? Apart from copyright issues - which many Chinese companies don't care about - it is more beneficial to copy a model which is very popular and sells in thousands.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
My sense is that you have painted a picture of this kit as just being unloved, unwanted and unsellable ...
This is not a picture I have painted, but was harsh and true reality. Multiplex took the risk creating something a bit more exotic ... and failed.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
This is not a picture I have painted, but was harsh and true reality. Multiplex took the risk creating something a bit more exotic ... and failed.

Jürgen
It gets tricky when people can't accept that even "harsh and true" realities (if granted) stem from circumstances which are subject to change. This hobby is a very different world from a decade ago and several of us have given valid and relevant reasons as to how it is different.

When you get some free time, take a look through the Hobbyking offerings. They are willing to take chances on some "exotic" style models and from all accounts, HK is a profitable company.

Multiplex's days are numbered in this market if they continue offering only the most conservative of models.

So why not clone more successful models? Well, why not do both? The market is flooded with Easy* clones now...sometimes there are sales to be had in a niche, especially when there is pent-up demand such as with the SL.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 03:35 PM
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I wouldn't label MPX as making conservative designs ... the UberFunjet is a screamer out of the box and again is well cloned, the PuppyFighters hit a niche ...

What was a sales flop 10 years ago may well have been just ahead of its time. 10 years ago, here in the US. Glow was mainstream and Epower was a bunch of geeks with protractors in their pockets. TowerHobby's catelog is proof of where the hobby is then and is now. Perhaps the model was too foward thought for the times when Epower flyers were at best 1/100 at the local field.

... reference the EV1 then and the Prius/Volt/Tesla now (although Yes, the EV1 was never for sale ... but GM literally crushed all memories of it to save face. note any similarities with MPX destroying the SL molds ?)
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 04:57 PM
Lou
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Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post

Multiplex's days are numbered in this market if they continue offering only the most conservative of models.
Not hardly. That belief have been expressed probably every year for the last 8 or 9 years. Multiplex is still alive, kicking and thriving. Selling foam planes to America is not their only market or their only product line.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 05:08 PM
Lou
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Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post

I made comment earlier about feeling sorry for you,...and I really do.By NOT building and flying this model ,you have deprived yourself of the priviledge of enjoying probably one of the best all around model airplanes every devised....Thats why I really do not understand why you feel the need to continue to bash it and those who admire and or aspire to own one .Perhaps actually enjoying this hobby intimidates you ? Or perhaps your real hobby is something else entirely.
Interesting belief of yours. Have you looked at Jurgen's blogs, archives and videos? I doubt that there are any other members on RCG that have enjoyed and promoted this hobby, in America and Europe as much as Jurgen have.

I have gone back and looked at this thread over the last several days; I can find nowhere that Jurgen have bashed the SL. When someone made an inaccurate statement or a statment made on their belief, Jurgen offered the facts, truth and reality of the SL.

That truth did not set well with those that had other beliefs about the plane or with those that wanted to belive there is a market for the plane. The plane was a flop years ago and if there where any market for it today, one of the Asian manufacturers would have already made the plane.
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 06:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Obake View Post
Have you looked at Jurgen's blogs, archives and videos?
Yes I have .Not all of course ,the archives alone would most likely require several days of perusal.His knowledge and (dare I say it ?)apparent expertise on the subjects presented is extensive.The problem as I see it isn't content , it is the manner in which he presents it. As I see things a couple things are immediately apparent when dealing with Mr Helig...

1) Regardless the subject matter ,Mr Helig is always right ....

2)Whenever a differing opinion is offered or he is directly challenged regarding his "facts",rather than calmly and rationally discussing the issue(s) ,Mr Helig, more often than not ,goes on the offensive ,...figuratively attempting to eviscerate/destroy/discredit/or ridicule anyone that dares to challenge his opinions, knowledge ,or "expertise."
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Why not clone other models? As mentioned before: Why would anybody clone something which was a sales flop? Apart from copyright issues - which many Chinese companies don't care about - it is more beneficial to copy a model which is very popular and sells in thousands.
There's nothing preventing them from cloning other models. It's not like we're talking about some "finite cloning resource" and that telling them to clone an SL will prevent them from cloning something else.

We just don't need to tell them to clone an existing popular model -- we have you and Obake for that task.

As far as your points:

#1. There are many instances of products/ideas being sales flops initially (for whatever reasons -- and people have given those reasons), only to be revived later and become popular. Without a solid reason for why it failed, and why conditions today are the same or worse than they were 10 years ago for a SL, this is just a really, really bad argument.

#2. How does a product become popular if it's killed before its time? You can't kill a product early on, hide it in your closet and never build it out or show it to anyone, and then throw up your hands and wonder why it wasn't more popular.

#3. There is upshot to cloning a product for which there is demand but no supply (and again, without supply, it cannot be popular). Especially if they can do it cheaper and make improvements along the way.


So since you made me go back and re-read the thread to look for your posts on where to go buy a SL, I decided to pull this one up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig
The Sonicliner failed, in my opinion, because the majority of model pilots is more interested in WW II fighters, foam jets etc. rather than airliners. The Sonicliner is not the only foam model which flopped. Have a look at the Robbe Dash 7, BAe 146, Concorde and/or Airliner. All models have disappeared too.
And once again here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Even if the model would be available today with brushless motors and LiPo batteries, the vast majority would still go for WW I & II fighters and EDF models - and that's what the manufacturers go for too, because that's where you make money.
OK, so I'm a little lost here. Jurgen, somebody, and/or anybody: Which category does an EasyStar/Bixler fall under? WWII fighter? Foam jet? "Etc."? EDF model?
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Old Jan 30, 2013, 08:59 PM
Lou
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Originally Posted by GoatZilla View Post

OK, so I'm a little lost here. Jurgen, somebody, and/or anybody: Which category does an EasyStar/Bixler fall under? WWII fighter? Foam jet? "Etc."? EDF model?
Of course it is not an EDF or fighter or anything else but a high wing foam pusher prop plane, as far as airframe.

To answer your question literally, the EasyStar is a beginners plane. It is also attractive to more experienced pilots as a fun plane to fly, video plane and what ever they can come up with. There are other manufacturers making same 'style' planes because this style is so popular with pilots; not just in America but in other countries as well. These various offerings are a testament to the planes popularity.

As far as my abillity to sway manufacturers as to what to clone, I am seldom heard by them. But, Parkzone have stated on this site, that they produce war birds because that is what sells. Numerous other companies are also into the war bird market because that is where a great lot of the money is. 3D is very popular also, in fact extremely popular. There is very good money in gliders, especially high end competition gliders. Some money in Cargo, Airliner and Transport planes. The Sonic Liner I would guess would come under the CAT class.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Obake View Post
Of course it is not an EDF or fighter or anything else but a high wing foam pusher prop plane, as far as airframe.

To answer your question literally, the EasyStar is a beginners plane. It is also attractive to more experienced pilots as a fun plane to fly, video plane and what ever they can come up with. There are other manufacturers making same 'style' planes because this style is so popular with pilots; not just in America but in other countries as well. These various offerings are a testament to the planes popularity.

As far as my abillity to sway manufacturers as to what to clone, I am seldom heard by them. But, Parkzone have stated on this site, that they produce war birds because that is what sells. Numerous other companies are also into the war bird market because that is where a great lot of the money is. 3D is very popular also, in fact extremely popular. There is very good money in gliders, especially high end competition gliders. Some money in Cargo, Airliner and Transport planes. The Sonic Liner I would guess would come under the CAT class.
I think you simultaneously missed the point while reinforcing your own premise.

It doesn't matter what "category" you try to pigeonhole a plane into as long as it is a good design. Slapping whatever categorical name on it doesn't change the fact that it is a large foamie with a canard and a long fuselage which would be just as convenient, if not more so, for people who want to make modifications as with the EasyStar.

That being said, I'm starting to actually come around to you and Jurgen's side on this one.

One of the original reasons I said the plane failed was that people just weren't ready for a large foamie. They were too caught up in their own biases, particularly since the old balsa crowd was still very painfully present, creating a "this plane falls into this category and thus cannot be seriously regarded" attitude.

And quite frankly, it looks like that attitude hasn't changed. You guys just now subdivide into "beginner's vs warbirds vs gliders vs 'transport planes'" instead of just looking at something for what it is.

What a sadly stunted hobby this is. So many misguided, ham-handed things that we still have to contend with.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 12:55 AM
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Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
...
The problem as I see it isn't content , it is the manner in which he presents it. As I see things a couple things are immediately apparent when dealing with Mr Helig...

1) Regardless the subject matter ,Mr Helig is always right ....

2)Whenever a differing opinion is offered or he is directly challenged regarding his "facts",rather than calmly and rationally discussing the issue(s) ,Mr Helig, more often than not ,goes on the offensive ,...figuratively attempting to eviscerate/destroy/discredit/or ridicule anyone that dares to challenge his opinions, knowledge ,or "expertise."
First of all, you could try and get my name right.

Secondly, I am not discussing subjects I am not familiar with. As an aeronautical engineer and a seasoned RC pilot for more than 40 years, I am usually right about what I am saying (You are welcome to check any of my 18.000+ posts to find one, where I wrote something incorrect).

When I present facts, i.e. 2 + 2 = 4, what's the point in long fruitless discussions why the correct answer can't be 3 or 5. I am an engineer and not a philosopher.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 01:07 AM
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Originally Posted by GoatZilla View Post
...
One of the original reasons I said the plane failed was that people just weren't ready for a large foamie. They were too caught up in their own biases, particularly since the old balsa crowd was still very painfully present, creating a "this plane falls into this category and thus cannot be seriously regarded" attitude.

And quite frankly, it looks like that attitude hasn't changed. You guys just now subdivide into "beginner's vs warbirds vs gliders vs 'transport planes'" instead of just looking at something for what it is.
...
Well, the Sonic Liner isn't much bigger than the Twin-Star or the Twin-Jet and smaller than the Cargo or the Robbe Dash 7.

Of course you can devide between beginner models - intermediate models and expert models. Somebody who starts with an EasyStar can decide what he likes better - motor on or motor off - and then get a motor model or a glider model next (or both ). Whether the next model is a fighter, a delta, a multi-motor model etc. is up to personal preference.

Jürgen
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GoatZilla View Post
I think you simultaneously missed the point while reinforcing your own premise.

It doesn't matter what "category" you try to pigeonhole a plane into as long as it is a good design. Slapping whatever categorical name on it doesn't change the fact that it is a large foamie with a canard and a long fuselage which would be just as convenient, if not more so, for people who want to make modifications as with the EasyStar.

That being said, I'm starting to actually come around to you and Jurgen's side on this one.

One of the original reasons I said the plane failed was that people just weren't ready for a large foamie. They were too caught up in their own biases, particularly since the old balsa crowd was still very painfully present, creating a "this plane falls into this category and thus cannot be seriously regarded" attitude.

And quite frankly, it looks like that attitude hasn't changed. You guys just now subdivide into "beginner's vs warbirds vs gliders vs 'transport planes'" instead of just looking at something for what it is.

What a sadly stunted hobby this is. So many misguided, ham-handed things that we still have to contend with.
I suspect the fundamental failing of the SL was the marketing approach utilized by MPX .The original airframe design by Boeing was as an airliner .An airliner however that was never built .MPX failed to look at the SL outside the "airliner" box,and brought the model to market thinking it would sell as an airliner anyway.

When I purchased my first SL ,my intentions were to build it as marketed .However ...once I had the bare kit assembled ,without the fancy decals It didn't look so much as an airliner to me but rather as a Twinjet on steriods . Up until that time the few full sized aircraft with canards that existed were either fighter jets or small general aviation 2-4 seaters.(yes JH ,I know the USAF had developed the experimental XC70 as well.. with exactly 2 prototypes in existence ,however... few outside of the military with interest of USAF aircraft knew of its existence though for many years)...

The basic lines and similarity to the Twinjet was unmistakable and I (as well as many others )no longer "saw" a large airliner ,but a sleek go fast exotic plane unlike any before it .Perhaps had MPX marketed the SL as a Twinjet on steriods instead,...It would have suceeded as such far beyond their expectations.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 01:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
First of all, you could try and get my name right.



Jürgen
I could have at that ,perhaps its a mental block problem ,I dunno ...every time I see the letters "H-e-i-l" strung together I immediately think "Hitler" following them ,perhaps its a racial memory thing or something to do with a few of my ancestors disappearing many years ago, never to be seen or heard from again .Tell ya what ,now that you've pointed it out I'll make a concerted effort to get your name right in future posts or perhaps just refer to you as "JH"...hows that sound.?

I'm not presently challenging the accuracy of any statements presented by you ,...only pointing out my observations those times others have and the manner in which you've reacted.
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Old Jan 31, 2013, 03:43 AM
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Originally Posted by daddiozz View Post
... once I had the bare kit assembled ,without the fancy decals It didn't look so much as an airliner to me but rather as a Twinjet on steriods . Up until that time the few full sized aircraft with canards that existed were either fighter jets or small general aviation 2-4 seaters.(yes JH ,I know the USAF had developed the experimental XC70 as well.. ...
Well, I never looked at the Sonic Liner as a Twin-Jet on steroids. I rather see it as an exotic Twin-Star alternative.

Forgot about the Beechcraft Starship (6 pax) or the Piaggio Avanti (7-8 pax)?

Jürgen
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