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View Poll Results: Are you interested in a Multiplex Sonic Liner clone?
I'd strongly consider buying one 75 54.35%
I would possibly consider buying one 31 22.46%
no interest 29 21.01%
other thoughts- explain in your post 3 2.17%
Voters: 138. You may not vote on this poll

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Old Nov 27, 2012, 04:56 PM
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Geneva
Joined Nov 2008
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I love it so much I don't want a copy

I am fond of the original Sonic liner from MPX and I am ready to miss it rather than having a cheap copy. It is a collector, a rare piece of souvenir.. I would accept to have a revival version from MPX just like VW did it with the Bettle car. But please, not a chinese copy... Should you want a Swatch chinese copy? Or would you prefer to go and search all second-hand markets for a used watch or a used Sonic liner?
The other option is to build one by yourself: Steve Shumate has published on this site a very good plan of the Sonic Cruiser!
Sorry, this is my opinion!
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Old Nov 27, 2012, 05:09 PM
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Most of the chinese multiplex clones are actually good quality, not at all like their other counterfeit products.
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Old Nov 27, 2012, 05:56 PM
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synopsis of article

If I am reading the article correctly, not being a aeronautical engineer. The gist is, that the return on investment for building the sonic liner was going to be hard to achieve, it was going to require expensive and extensive use of advanced composites and titanium and that the type of air travel network in use in the USA would eat up much of the airframes dsigned in advances. so in conclusion Boeing would have been better off copying multiplex's design with a thick high lift airfoil, going with a wide body or blended body cabin design and dialing back the speed requirement to conserve on fuel and producing a visually striking design that would operate in the traditional speed range of commercial aircraft...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
Great, now you are using words I have to look up in a dictionary.

Looks like your interest has shifted far away from getting answers regarding the Sonicliner.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 03:18 AM
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53859 Niederkassel, Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgoffa View Post
If I am reading the article correctly, not being a aeronautical engineer. The gist is, that the return on investment for building the sonic liner was going to be hard to achieve, it was going to require expensive and extensive use of advanced composites and titanium and that the type of air travel network in use in the USA would eat up much of the airframes designed in advances. ...
I am sure there are many more reasons why the Sonic Cruiser Project got axed, but here are a few:

- Modern information technology has significantly reduced the requirement for fast business traveling.
- 9/11 has significantly increased the times to check-in and -out at the airports, reducing the speed advantage of a concept like the Sonic Cruiser.
- Increased cruise speed of newer conventional airliners, reducing the advantage of the Sonic Cruiser.
- High risk of failing to achieve the design goals - often airplanes come out heavier than planned and/or have more drag than calculated.
- Higher costs for travellers in comparison to conventional airliners and let's face it, this is a major factor.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
I am sure there are many more reasons why the Sonic Cruiser Project got axed, but here are a few:

- Modern information technology has significantly reduced the requirement for fast business traveling.
- 9/11 has significantly increased the times to check-in and -out at the airports, reducing the speed advantage of a concept like the Sonic Cruiser.
- Increased cruise speed of newer conventional airliners, reducing the advantage of the Sonic Cruiser.
- High risk of failing to achieve the design goals - often airplanes come out heavier than planned and/or have more drag than calculated.
- Higher costs for travellers in comparison to conventional airliners and let's face it, this is a major factor.

Jürgen
Most of this seems like reasonable speculation.

The sad truth is that in these cynical times, the risk/benefit analysis on ambition has changed. At one time, we aspired to break the sound barrier, land men on the moon, push humanity farther and farther.

Now, we're terrified of a poor quarterly earnings report.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 07:58 AM
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So it's hard to imagine a clone of the Sonic for sale without the retrofitting of electric retracts. I don't believe they're necessary for this model (and I wouldn't want them) but looking around at the Hking offerings these days, they seem to be standard now.

Has anyone atempted to fit this plane with retracts? Would the pusher configuration cause problems when rotating for take-off?
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
Most of this seems like reasonable speculation.
...
Well, anybody travelling before and after 9/11 will confirm, that checking into a flight takes a lot longer nowadays.

The cruise speed of conventional airliners moving from Ma 0.8/0.82 to Ma 0.85 is also a fact - have a look at the Boeing 787 or an Airbus A330/340.

You want examples of Airplanes coming out heavier and more expensive than planned ... be my guest.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post
...
Would the pusher configuration cause problems when rotating for take-off?
It is not so much the pusher configuration causing problems (although EDF would be less of a concern), but the long distance between CG and prop.

Even for a mere 10° rotation angle, you would already need a rather long landing gear setup (spoiling the sleek looks and prone to damage during less than perfect landings):
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:58 AM
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Moving the main landing gear further back, allows for somewhat shorter landing gear, but you need a higher take-off speed, because of the longer lever between CG and rotation point:

Multiplex Sonic Liner AP w/Landing Gear (1 min 53 sec)


Jürgen
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 09:32 AM
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^ which reinforces my preference for hand launch for this model. I still think a clone would try to offer electric retracts if one was ever made. It's part of the "percieved value" for planes these days.

The newer Sonic Cruiser design proposal with the turbines on top of the fuselage would alleviate this problem.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 02:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurgen Heilig View Post
It is not so much the pusher configuration causing problems (although EDF would be less of a concern), but the long distance between CG and prop.

Even for a mere 10° rotation angle, you would already need a rather long landing gear setup (spoiling the sleek looks and prone to damage during less than perfect landings):
It was done by Tom in Cincy, and all the points you make are shown in his
retract set-up. Still very cool though, if you have a long smooth runway.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=132

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=134

"The plane required very little rotation angle. Maybe 10-15 degrees."

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Old Nov 28, 2012, 02:24 PM
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rotate this :)

If you look at a sonic liner in person the canard has a significant positice angle of attack. And the wing has reflex on the trailing edge. I wonder if the sonic liner would lift off in a 3 point attitude . Baring that if you were goimg to fit gear use of a longer nose strut like the f7f cutlass would maintain optimum angle of attack
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cgoffa View Post
If you look at a sonic liner in person the canard has a significant positice angle of attack. And the wing has reflex on the trailing edge. I wonder if the sonic liner would lift off in a 3 point attitude . ...
With enough positive angle of attack, every model will take off without rotating, provided the speed is high enough (could be tricky with small wheels on grass).

You also may not want to land at such high speeds and when you slow down, the angle of attack will get higher and you may touchdown with the props first. Using folding props may prevent props from getting damaged.

Jürgen
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrFixit View Post
I am fond of the original Sonic liner from MPX and I am ready to miss it rather than having a cheap copy. It is a collector, a rare piece of souvenir.. I would accept to have a revival version from MPX just like VW did it with the Bettle car. But please, not a chinese copy... Should you want a Swatch chinese copy? Or would you prefer to go and search all second-hand markets for a used watch or a used Sonic liner?
The other option is to build one by yourself: Steve Shumate has published on this site a very good plan of the Sonic Cruiser!
Sorry, this is my opinion!
Right on, MrFixit. I think we would all prefer a reissue from MPX but they have promised to us that this will never happen....and for good reasons. Their costs for maintaining or repairing the old tooling, the shipping costs, etc. mean that they can't turn a profit with these kits. It's a sad fact of our hobby that only a few "first world" major brands do well any more...

I find the world of Chinese clones to be pretty upsetting when the original model is still in production. It hurts those who put their hard work into the kits and it discourages innovation. That said, when a model is gone forever like the SL, the morality equasion has changed a bit and this is probably the only way many of us will get to fly one.

As you mentioned, these are basically collector's items now. If I did find a kit for sale locally (that I didn't have to pay $200+USD to buy and $100+USD to ship ) I would be inclined to hang it from the ceiling of my shop and never take it to the field!

Thanks for the heads-up on Steve Shumate's plans!! Very cool..
http://www.parkjets.com/boeing-sonic-cruiser/

Quote:
Originally Posted by kov16 View Post
Most of the chinese multiplex clones are actually good quality, not at all like their other counterfeit products.
This is also very true and it's what got me thinking about what other models they might clone in the future. Once the hard work of engineering is done, copying the EPO molds is apparently pretty simple. The odds of a Sonic Liner clone being nearly as good as the original are pretty high.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MRGTX View Post

[snip]
Thanks for the heads-up on Steve Shumate's plans!! Very cool..
http://www.parkjets.com/boeing-sonic-cruiser/
[snip]
Uhm, very interesting
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