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Old Nov 21, 2012, 11:16 AM
r/c ships and workboats
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I am afraid that this thread is more about what is comming to other bussiness as well. Just a very public enitity that produced a commodity that has fond memories for many and a part of Americana. We all expected the Twinkie to surrive any thing.... except this. Greed is to blame on all accounts and is an infectiouse issue that will show again in other bussiness in the future with the disagreeing political parties and ideals.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 11:31 AM
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[QUOTE=Kmot;23319433]Twinkies, yum!

http://www.petapixel.com/2012/11/19/...-each-twinkie/



They are after all a food group !
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 12:34 PM
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The bankruptcy that Hostess originally filed for was with reorganization, not liquidation. There purpose was to try and keep the company afloat long enough to try and sell of sections of the company, since attempts to sell the whole organization had failed.
As much as the whiny liberals want to blame greedy CEOs and stock holders, when this type of filing is done, all expenditures not directly needed for the operation and maintenance of the company are place on hold, so no bonuses for management of share holders.
I know that the whiny liberals love to blame these things on business, that the hard working employees can not possibly be to blame, but in this case, the unions killed this company.
As for the car industry, the government should never have been involved. They should have filed for restructuring bankruptcy, taken there losses, get the unions to take a pay cut, get wages to a reasonable level. Now with the evil government bailout, nothing has been done to actually help out the industry.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 12:45 PM
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Keith you have to understand that it sounds like Union's membership were pushed to the wall. They made large concessions in the past, in pay, pension and benifits, a layoff of over 20% of the workforce, plant closings and the money saved was not reinvested in the company but was used to pay dividends to the owners. The unions at Interstate Bakeries/Hostess Brands had a long history of adaptation and working with the company, with management and the previous owners and shareholders. This was a 'Hail Mary' pass to try and save what they had left.

I was chatting with a business associate yesterday. His wife is one of the administrators for the company pension fund. Five, six years ago, there was money in the fund and everyones' pensions were safe. Now if a retiree phones about their pension,she tells them that the money is all gone.

A strike vote where 92 percent of the membership vote to strike in the face of layoffs is not an everyday occurrence. Sounds to me like the membership decided the company had been squeezing blood out of their stones and the stones couldn't take anymore.

Remember also, that in the end, the way the bankruptcy laws are structured, it is very unlikely that the private equity funds that own Hostess Brands will lose any significant amount of money. The fund managers that drove the company into the ground will not loose ANY money at all; they still get their percentages of the clients' principal no matter what. The only real losers here will be the employees and the sweet-toothed consumer though Grupo Bimbo, S.A.B. de C.V. of Mexico which is the world's largest baking company is the most currently favored to acquire Hostess Brands. Wall Street expects GB to take the jobs to Mexico where the sugar supply is better and not subject to tariff, in-other-words, cheaper.

Both Grupo Bimbo and the Canadian Hostess licensee are expected to begin exporting their products to the US.

(BTW - It is pronounced Beem-bo)
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 12:56 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Originally Posted by Tachikaze View Post
whiny liberals
Gee - Much of the economic and voodoo economic theory (as well as some political theory) of the Tea-Party and others these days is based on the writings and theory of those very 'whiney' classic liberals Friedrich Hayek (who received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from Pres. Bush and shared a Nobel Prize in economics), Milton Friedman (who also received the Nobel Prize in economics) and the rest of the classic liberals of the "Chicago School" of economics.

ps. Hostess Brands is/was privately held, mainly by a couple of hedge funds who acquired Hostess in a leveraged acquisition though the Unions themselves had an equity stake in the company as well gained by making major concessions during the first restructuring, so the unions had a stake in this beyond just their jobs.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 01:25 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Originally Posted by Tachikaze View Post
As for the car industry, the government should never have been involved. They should have filed for restructuring bankruptcy, taken there losses, get the unions to take a pay cut, get wages to a reasonable level. Now with the evil government bailout, nothing has been done to actually help out the industry.
Gee - then Mrs. Romney's substantial investment in the Elliott Management (a hedge fund), directed by 
Paul Singer that bought Delphi Automotive wouldn't have paid off.

From an Greg Palast's article on the bailout and the Romney's stake in it....
"(After all, ABC News reported—and Romney didn’t deny—that he invested “a huge chunk of his vast wealth” with Singer.) Then their take from the auto bailout so far would reach a stunning $115 million.

The Romneys’ exact gain, however, remains nearly 
invisible—and untaxed—because Singer cashed out only a fragment of the windfall in 2011. And the Singer-led hedge funds have been able to keep almost all of Delphi’s profits untaxed 
by moving Delphi’s incorporation from Troy, Michigan, to the Isle of Jersey, a tax haven off the coast of France.

The Romneys might insist that the funds were given to Singer, Mitt’s key donor, only through Ann’s blind trust. But as Mitt Romney said some years ago of Ted Kennedy, “The blind trust is an age-old ruse, if you will. Which is to say, you can always tell a blind trust what it can and cannot do.” Romney, who reminds us often that he was CEO of a hedge fund, can certainly read Elliott Management’s SEC statements, and he knows Ann’s trust is invested heavily in a fund whose No. 1 stake is with Delphi.

Nevertheless, even if the Romneys were blind to their initial investment in Elliott, they would have known by the beginning of 2010 that they had a massive position in Delphi and would make a fortune from the bailout and TARP funds. Delphi is not a minor investment for Singer; it is his main holding. To invest in Elliott is essentially a “Delphi play”: that is, investing with Singer means buying a piece of the auto bailout."
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 02:13 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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Lets try to understand something - A corporation has no moral, legal or even patriotic obligation other than to generate income for the owners, none! The Supreme Court has affirmed this.

Many people here seem to think that the Union got greedy. You misunderstand what a "turnaround" or hedge fund is obligated to do.... No more nor less than make money. If it can do it by "saving" a company, they might, if it is not too much trouble. Hostess was probably doomed from the start. (If some of the articles about the way the company was mismanaged in the business press are correct, this was inevitable.)

But it is easier to do it the way it was apparently done with Hostess. Buy the company for pennies on the dollar using leveraged debt that costs the hedge fund little or nothing as the debt will then be transferred to the reorganized company, now probably partially reincorporated in a tax haven. If the reorganized company can soldier on fine, but it is usually more quickly profitable for the new "owners" to collapse the acquired company and liquidate it assets, pocketing the proceeds from the sales of its assets.

All perfectly legal since the only obligation of the hedge fund is to create wealth for its clients. It has absolutely no legal obligation to keep acquired entities solvent or in business. Suck the company dry then sell the carcass.

I understand the legalities - I question the morality. I don't even bother to consider patriotism - that capitol has no nationality what-so-ever has been proven over and over again.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 02:55 PM
Stick, roger ball.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by craig_c View Post
Gee - Much of the economic and voodoo economic theory (as well as some political theory) of the Tea-Party and others these days is based on the writings and theory of those very 'whiney' classic liberals Friedrich Hayek (who received the Presidential Medal of Freedom from Pres. Bush and shared a Nobel Prize in economics), Milton Friedman (who also received the Nobel Prize in economics) and the rest of the classic liberals of the "Chicago School" of economics.
Now that is a mischaracterization in the very least. Classic liberalism is for limited government, civil liberties and political freedom. All directly opposed to modern liberalism of the US Democratic party.

Hayek and Friedman were economic advisers for Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan and were in staunch opposition to the socialistic policies of national control known as Keynesian economics.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 02:55 PM
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Man, we must have a new batch of very liberal moderators in place. A year ago this thread would have been moved/closed after about the fourth post. IMHO this is the way it should be. As I've often said "If you don't like it, don't read it."
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 03:37 PM
made of fire and pop rocks
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Originally Posted by craig_c View Post
Bimbo, S.A.B. de C.V. of Mexico[/URL] which is the world's largest baking company is the most currently favored to acquire Hostess Brands. Wall Street expects GB to take the jobs to Mexico where the sugar supply is better and not subject to tariff, in-other-words, cheaper.

Both Grupo Bimbo and the Canadian Hostess licensee are expected to begin exporting their products to the US.
As per the boldend part.. that meens the sugar used, will most likely be real sugar,and not HFCS. which, is marginally better for you, and in my humble opinion at least, tastes a lot better than that corn crap.

there is no reason for Bimbo to reopen any plant, and rehire anyone. their current infrastructure can more than handle it.

PBR is also in negotiations to purchase the brand names, and if they do, they would most likely Contract with Bimbo any ways.

PBR, and yes, I'm speaking of Pabst Blue Ribbon is pretty much a capital investment firm and are registered as the largest American owned brewery right now. the main deal is that own all the nostalgia beer brands.

all of those cheap beer brands a lot of y'all may have grown up drinking? if any of them are still on the Market, PBR puts them out regionally.

But, they don't own any physical breweries of their own. Almost all of it is brewed by SABMiller.And the majority of it all is more or less just Miller High life that has been re-branded. Got a lot of respect for that company actually, The dude who owns PBR is a very young, and VERY rich man that knows what he is doing. But, Nostalgia brands is what PBR does, and that is what they are good at. they would be a good fit to Sheppard the brand.

SABMiller btw, is owned by a South African based capital investment firm. .
ABInBev is owned by the Belgians and is the worlds largest brewing company
Coors/Molson is Canadian owned now.

The largest American owned and operated Breweries, as in Breweries that make their own beer in their own plants is a toss up between Boston Brewing company and Yuengling.

It's a toss up, for me at least, because Boston beer works makes a SH..oooot load of beer, they still rely a lot on contract brewing via mostly SABMiller plants, but they do own and operate physical brewery plants.

Yuengling has a yearly out put similar to BBW but all of their product is put out between their own physical plants. And they can owe a great deal of their modern success to keeping to a good price point and ripping a page out of PBR's playbook.

But Hostoss the brand, not the company itself, I could care less about the hows and whys of that stuff anymore. It's too much of a devisive subject. and this thread is creeping close to being banished to P&R land as it is. the company was some 8 BILLION in debt.. nothing was going to save it. that the owners took bonuses after the first bankruptcy, after the workers union made heavy concessions, and then ran it into Bankruptcy again, I find particularly grievous. but at this point is niether here nor there.

The Hostess name itself has too much brand value to die.

in more positive news. the company I work for just accepted delivery on $180,000 worth of new equipment as we continue to expand production capability and are furthing our expansions. that equipment is expected to pay for itself by June at the latest.

Quote:
(BTW - It is pronounced Beem-bo)
and here is where I make the joke about a bunch of Bimbos giving us their Twinkies and cupcakes.. what a bunch of Hoho's
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 04:09 PM
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...brewery ...beer ...cheap beer ...breweries ...brewed ...brewing ...Breweries, as in Breweries that make ... beer ...Brewing ...beer ...brewery ...expand production capability...
This thread just got so much better! Thanks bgnome!
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 04:42 PM
Spreckels Lake, GGP, SF, CA
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@Stick_01

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Classic liberalism is for limited government, civil liberties and political freedom. All directly opposed to modern liberalism of the US Democratic party.
un-hunh....

Limited government -
We got it, much more so than you know. Chat with folks from other places and see how much their governments are in their lives and faces compared to ours. It's still a big part of why folks still want to flock here to find their fortune and freedoms. Have you had to report to your local Blockleiter, Shire Reeve or jūmínwěiyuánhuì (neighborhood committee) lately?

Civil liberties -
Try knowing people who have lived in Iran (under the Shah or under the mullahs, either way, doesn't matter), Iraq or any middle eastern country or Russia or eastern Europe or much of Latin America, it will develop whole new appreciation for what we still have in the way of civil liberties for you. Yes, we have lost a few, but we can get them back - maybe. And you also happen to be a citizen - not a 'subject!'

Political Freedom -
The fact that this discussion is possible should be your heads up - Many places in the world it would already have attracted the attention of the political authorities and may have resulted in arrests. The fact that Rushbo, Ms Coulter and Mr. Beck on the right and the entire staffs of Slate or The Nation on the left and others who go way further haven't disappeared into the Night and Fog attests to the fact that we do have political freedom at a level not found in many other places in the world.

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Hayek and Friedman were economic advisers for Margaret Thatcher and Ronald Reagan and were in staunch opposition to the socialistic policies of national control known as Keynesian economics.
Hmmm, but that would make them at least the step-fathers of neoliberal economics, oh, I'm sorry, there's that liberal word again! Hayek himself rejected 'conservatism (as it was known in the 60's).'

People forget that Hayek wrote "that the government has a role to play in the economy through the monetary system, work-hours regulation, institutions for the flow of proper information, and other principles on which most members of a free society will tend to agree." He also had no issues with "the state" intervening during time of crisis.

He also wrote in the Road to Serfdom "There is no reason why, in a society which has reached the general level of wealth ours has, the first kind of security should not be guaranteed to all without endangering general freedom." He went on to say that meant a system that ensured at least a minimum standard food, shelter and clothing, "sufficient to preserve health." Nor did he see any reason why the state should not establish a "comprehensive system of social insurance in providing for those common hazards" such as medical insurance, disability and other catastrophe insurances, etc.

For such a conservative godling, that sure sounds awfully classically liberal to me. What Hayek was against was what he regarded as things that lead to government overreach leading toward totalitarianism, not the Democratic Party.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 04:44 PM
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This thread just got so much better! Thanks bgnome!
Works f/me - and we can convert the mini-kegs to bouys.
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 04:46 PM
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mini-kegs...
Now we're getting somewhere!
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 04:57 PM
made of fire and pop rocks
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Just doing my part to help elevate that nations mood and morale.

for, if we can't drink to celebrate, than we must drink to lament.

in the last year, we've invested over a million into the place in those good ole durable goods. have hired four more people. the latest one started today.. our new lab lady who came in filled out her paper work, and commenced to making the new lab her new little home.. There is some $50,000 alone invested in that lab. all spanking brand new construction and equipment.

another amusing point, when she came in, she saw me and went PEA JAY!!!! (I go by my initials) as it turns out, she is one of my little sisters best friends.

So, this young lady will be getting a pay scale commiserate with her education and experience level with decent bennies.

the lab, as it comes fully on line, will help to ensure continued product consitancy as we grow further... and we expect the beer to be available to consumers in VA, MD, NC, SC, KY, and PA by the end of the next fiscal year.

so... it's not all gloom and doom out there folks. there are people thriving in this economy.


it must absolutely be considered that Beer is considered and "affordable luxury item" folks will find room in the budget for beer. or wine, or booze... what have you.. the stuff aint recession PROOF, but it is fairly resistant.
the average price of a six pack of the beer I make is about 8.99..

sounds high, I know, but folks are paying it.. gladly, because, well, it has flavor, and of course, a Higher ABV. there will always be a place for the big brewers and the lower level ABV stuff, but when it comes to the brackets I work with, at that price point folks can either buy a cheap, sub par wine, or a six pack of GOOD beer, and they will more often than not go for the GOOD beer.


of course, with that said, I must state that whenerve i am asked "what is the best beer in the world" I turn to them and tell them directly that the term is subjective, that there are exactly two beers in the world that could ever be subjectively be called the BEST beer in the world... the first of course being FREE beer, the second best beer in the world of course... is the one in your hand.

as it happens I'm finishing up my last "shifty" at the pub, so currently, the best beer in the world is the Legend Brewing Company Golden Ale.
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