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Old Dec 01, 2012, 11:32 AM
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Jocke's Avatar
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Originally Posted by TTRotary View Post
With all due respect Jocke, this is just not true. I have opened up Turnigy and Flightmax packs after crashes and have found them to be very well constructed with good, consistent soldering quality - so consistent in fact that the soldering looks automated to me. I was expecting to see something as you describe, and was surprised at how good the batteries were. The packing materials are of high quality and the packs as a whole are at least as well constructed as the Thunder Power pack I also took apart. That should come as no surprise, given they are all probably manufactured at the same 4 factories in China, as are car batteries and many other commodities we buy today. I would certainly like to see a picture of the HK pack you describe.

The reality is that much of the electronics in the hobby, especially motors, ESCs, and batteries, are rebranded versions of a few product lines. The big names, like Horizon and TP, just rebrand and x3 the price to pay for all the advertising and US staffing overhead. The Eflite ESC's are a perfect example: the entire line is absolute JUNK, yet you pay multiples of what a similarly rated Pentium / Plush / Dterum will cost, and that ESC will run circles around the Eflite product. I have lost 4 Eflite ESCs and counting and have yet to lose a single HK. Knock wood of course.

Some people blindly equate price with quality, hoping that will somehow protect them from a bad outcome, and then try to justify their decision to themselves.
First, there arent only 4 factories makin LiPos in china. The interneth myth that all LiPo packs are from one holy source is not true. Regarding HK and there LiPos, all i have closly inspected have been hand made with poor use of material and very little extra to protects tabs, exiting wires, cells, the cells are low grade low quality cells, as cheap as possible, easy to see if one looks at how they are build with material, insulator, tabs and pouch seal. In fact the chines facorys in the battery market i work with and cooperate with dont want anything to do with HK, there products and there methoods.

One can not test just one or two packs from a brand and then say "there were crap" the whole picture is needed, in a series of batterie products that can go from 300-5000mAh with different versions, they cant be all good, its a chemical product and all have more or less failure rate.

To make a good LiPo batterie takes time, with aging and QC we are talking over a month in best case, if you go by the book. If you then use quality materials, shipped by the rules and laws we will get a couple of weeks for shipping, skilled staff, matching and so on, the price tag for the product will in the end be more than a batterie from HK.

Youre welcome to link the source and version of the good built HK batterie, i will get a few and inspect!

Wont comment of Eflite Escs, have little experience with them, and i try to stay as far away from HobbyWing as possible, except when i want to create smoke cheap
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 11:39 AM
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Originally Posted by flohio117 View Post
@ jocke what do you use? So far my thunder power are ok but to me they weren't worth the price. I have some aplus 2200mah 3s batteries that have just been freaking awesome and I actually got them for free with my gaui 500x kit from flying hobby about a year ago. To me the worst batteries are hands down e-flite they suck bad. If I had one last more than 25 flights it was amazing. The thunder power I have seem to be doing fine but it's just really hard to spend what they want for 1 battery anymore. T's why I'm looking for a decent but good quality alternative.

Ok, i use and test currently-
Vapex
Gravity
GensAce
TopFuel

My relation to Vapex and other brands can be read at my wattsup blogspot, at wattsup.se

I have little experience with todays TP, and not much point in me testing them, there are practicly not used here.
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 11:53 AM
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United States, CA, Santa Barbara
Joined Jun 2011
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Originally Posted by Jocke View Post
First, there arent only 4 factories makin LiPos in china. The interneth myth that all LiPo packs are from one holy source is not true. Regarding HK and there LiPos, all i have closly inspected have been hand made with poor use of material and very little extra to protects tabs, exiting wires, cells, the cells are low grade low quality cells, as cheap as possible, easy to see if one looks at how they are build with material, insulator, tabs and pouch seal. In fact the chines facorys in the battery market i work with and cooperate with dont want anything to do with HK, there products and there methoods.

One can not test just one or two packs from a brand and then say "there were crap" the whole picture is needed, in a series of batterie products that can go from 300-5000mAh with different versions, they cant be all good, its a chemical product and all have more or less failure rate.

To make a good LiPo batterie takes time, with aging and QC we are talking over a month in best case, if you go by the book. If you then use quality materials, shipped by the rules and laws we will get a couple of weeks for shipping, skilled staff, matching and so on, the price tag for the product will in the end be more than a batterie from HK.

Youre welcome to link the source and version of the good built HK batterie, i will get a few and inspect!

Wont comment of Eflite Escs, have little experience with them, and i try to stay as far away from HobbyWing as possible, except when i want to create smoke cheap
I agree about the electronics. In my various vehicles/planes I have 2 $15 Parkzone micro servos and 5-6 $1.99 Turnigy 9gram servos. Of causes that were not my fault, 1 of the parkzone servos failed and none of the turnigy servos failed. The turnigy servos are also faster and torquier
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 07:30 PM
Rangers Lead the Way
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Originally Posted by Jocke View Post
Regarding HK and there LiPos, all i have closly inspected have been hand made with poor use of material and very little extra to protects tabs, exiting wires, cells, the cells are low grade low quality cells, as cheap as possible, easy to see if one looks at how they are build with material, insulator, tabs and pouch seal. In fact the chines facorys in the battery market i work with and cooperate with dont want anything to do with HK, there products and there methoods.

To make a good LiPo batterie takes time, with aging and QC we are talking over a month in best case, if you go by the book. If you then use quality materials, shipped by the rules and laws we will get a couple of weeks for shipping, skilled staff, matching and so on, the price tag for the product will in the end be more than a batterie from HK.

Youre welcome to link the source and version of the good built HK batterie, i will get a few and inspect!

Wont comment of Eflite Escs, have little experience with them, and i try to stay as far away from HobbyWing as possible, except when i want to create smoke cheap
Really Jocke? You've got to be kidding me. Aging? LOL, we're making batteries, not wine. You must not sell many of those aged batteries, because the only thing getting old is your customers while they wait. Your european customers must be pretty gullible if they are buying any of this.

As for HK, with all that testing you do, you must have pictures documenting these poorly assembled HK Lipos and the crappy cells. I eagerly await documentation of your claims, otherwise I call BS on your claims. We here in the US like proof. So show us pictures.

I'm not in it for any brand and I'm not sponsored by anyone, nor do I feel sorry for HK, who are making a killing selling lipos and putting guys like you out of business in the process, but this is the kind of business appproach that gives the hobby a bad name.

As far as manufacturing is concerned, it is an unfortunate fact that scale is needed to compete and most products are in fact made by a few manufacturers. There are exactly 5 factories in Taiwan and China that make 90% of the automotive batteries in the world. Why? Because the chemicals are toxic and the labor is cheap. Lipos are no different.
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 08:04 PM
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United States, NJ, Clayton
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Originally Posted by TTRotary View Post
Really Jocke? You've got to be kidding me. Aging? LOL, we're making batteries, not wine. You must not sell many of those aged batteries, because the only thing getting old is your customers while they wait. Your european customers must be pretty gullible if they are buying any of this.

As for HK, with all that testing you do, you must have pictures documenting these poorly assembled HK Lipos and the crappy cells. I eagerly await documentation of your claims, otherwise I call BS on your claims. We here in the US like proof. So show us pictures.

I'm not in it for any brand and I'm not sponsored by anyone, nor do I feel sorry for HK, who are making a killing selling lipos and putting guys like you out of business in the process, but this is the kind of business appproach that gives the hobby a bad name.

As far as manufacturing is concerned, it is an unfortunate fact that scale is needed to compete and most products are in fact made by a few manufacturers. There are exactly 5 factories in Taiwan and China that make 90% of the automotive batteries in the world. Why? Because the chemicals are toxic and the labor is cheap. Lipos are no different.
believe it or not, aging lipo cells is actually helpful, it means less of a chance of a cell dying on you shortly after you receive it, we are not talking years lol
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 08:08 PM
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TTRotary - Its the kind of business approach that gives *business* a bad name. Everyone loves to see an RC plane being flown well.

Jocke - As far as your offer of inspection, Jocke, I don't know enough about these batteries to take a bet on someone else's comparison... especially if they're probably biased. You seem to have a pretty loud voice on this one, if you know what I mean, mate.

My 'inspection' of these batteries has been over 2 years and countless flights. I've found that the cheap Zippy/Turnigy/Flightmax packs *will* fail if subject repeatedly to their maximum 'burst' rating, and will perform well and last a long time if kept below their regular rating - just like any other lipo battery! For my current batteries these are ratings of between 20C and 45C, mostly 20 and 30C.

That amount of rating is plenty for almost anyone - I don't know about you but I find flying something for only 2 minutes at a time somewhat irritating, and much rather a long flight of at least 5 to 7 minutes. Thats equivalent to an average discharge rate of around 10C - very easily sustainable.

In my opinion if you're only getting 2 minutes flight time (ie using 30C discharge) then you're either running a real speed-freak, have installed an undersize pack, or have bought/built a poorly designed plane that *won't allow you* to use the right size pack for decent flight times. That first one is understandable, and you should be running high grade (standard rated 45C+) packs, but the last two are poor excuses to blame the battery on.

Personally I think paying anything more than $20 per 3s 1000mAh is a bit much, and I for one will be sticking to HK packs for their reliability and cost effectiveness.

Cheers - boingk
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 02:06 AM
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Jocke's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TTRotary View Post
Really Jocke? You've got to be kidding me. Aging? LOL, we're making batteries, not wine. You must not sell many of those aged batteries, because the only thing getting old is your customers while they wait. Your european customers must be pretty gullible if they are buying any of this.

As for HK, with all that testing you do, you must have pictures documenting these poorly assembled HK Lipos and the crappy cells. I eagerly await documentation of your claims, otherwise I call BS on your claims. We here in the US like proof. So show us pictures.

I'm not in it for any brand and I'm not sponsored by anyone, nor do I feel sorry for HK, who are making a killing selling lipos and putting guys like you out of business in the process, but this is the kind of business appproach that gives the hobby a bad name.

As far as manufacturing is concerned, it is an unfortunate fact that scale is needed to compete and most products are in fact made by a few manufacturers. There are exactly 5 factories in Taiwan and China that make 90% of the automotive batteries in the world. Why? Because the chemicals are toxic and the labor is cheap. Lipos are no different.

It seems to me you dont know the process of making a batterie. Belive me when i say that im not out of business i have been working with this a few years now. Sorry mate, but my so called "BS" is based on facts and experience.

Its unfortunate my old databank on my previous site is down, i had alot of data, pics and information on some HK batteries there. As for now i can treat you with a couple of pics, later i will have the information on my site up and running again.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 02:18 AM
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Originally Posted by boingk View Post
TTRotary - Its the kind of business approach that gives *business* a bad name. Everyone loves to see an RC plane being flown well.

Jocke - As far as your offer of inspection, Jocke, I don't know enough about these batteries to take a bet on someone else's comparison... especially if they're probably biased. You seem to have a pretty loud voice on this one, if you know what I mean, mate.

My 'inspection' of these batteries has been over 2 years and countless flights. I've found that the cheap Zippy/Turnigy/Flightmax packs *will* fail if subject repeatedly to their maximum 'burst' rating, and will perform well and last a long time if kept below their regular rating - just like any other lipo battery! For my current batteries these are ratings of between 20C and 45C, mostly 20 and 30C.

That amount of rating is plenty for almost anyone - I don't know about you but I find flying something for only 2 minutes at a time somewhat irritating, and much rather a long flight of at least 5 to 7 minutes. Thats equivalent to an average discharge rate of around 10C - very easily sustainable.

In my opinion if you're only getting 2 minutes flight time (ie using 30C discharge) then you're either running a real speed-freak, have installed an undersize pack, or have bought/built a poorly designed plane that *won't allow you* to use the right size pack for decent flight times. That first one is understandable, and you should be running high grade (standard rated 45C+) packs, but the last two are poor excuses to blame the battery on.

Personally I think paying anything more than $20 per 3s 1000mAh is a bit much, and I for one will be sticking to HK packs for their reliability and cost effectiveness.

Cheers - boingk
Well, i fly everything, small, large, giant, fast, slow, high, low, if i get a batterie with a performance spec rating on it, i want to be sure they have a meaning, and not just numbers on a shiny lable, or it will give me trouble sooner or later. Some performance planes can discharge a pack within 2min, some EDFs can drain a pack within just a few.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Jocke View Post
It seems to me you dont know the process of making a batterie. Belive me when i say that im not out of business i have been working with this a few years now. Sorry mate, but my so called "BS" is based on facts and experience.

Its unfortunate my old databank on my previous site is down, i had alot of data, pics and information on some HK batteries there. As for now i can treat you with a couple of pics, later i will have the information on my site up and running again.
Your pics demonstrate nothing. We don't even know what brand these are. They don't look like HK products to me - at least not current ones - therevare traces of paper labels peeled off that were directly adhered to the cells. HK batts are wrapped in at least 2 layers of plastic shrink material. As for the dents and near- punctures, there is no way to know whether they were caused by you or at the factory. I saw nothing like that on my packs and would not fly a pack that had near- punctures like that.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Jocke View Post
Well, i fly everything, small, large, giant, fast, slow, high, low, if i get a batterie with a performance spec rating on it, i want to be sure they have a meaning, and not just numbers on a shiny lable, or it will give me trouble sooner or larger. Some performance planes can discharge a pack within 2min, some EDFs can drain a pack within just a few.
I'm similar (my planes ranging from 18" micros to 2.5m gliders) and agree on this point.

I guess my main gripe - with all manufacturers presently - is that they give a 'burst rating'. This rating isn't standardized and is generally using current draw at a discharge rate which is harmful to the battery.

- boingk
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 08:58 PM
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Flown with thunder power 3s 65c 4400mah battery. It flies this quad awesome.
"EPIC" Hoverthings FPV Flight Video! (must watch) (4 min 34 sec)
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 02:08 AM
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Originally Posted by TTRotary View Post
Your pics demonstrate nothing. We don't even know what brand these are. They don't look like HK products to me - at least not current ones - therevare traces of paper labels peeled off that were directly adhered to the cells. HK batts are wrapped in at least 2 layers of plastic shrink material. As for the dents and near- punctures, there is no way to know whether they were caused by you or at the factory. I saw nothing like that on my packs and would not fly a pack that had near- punctures like that.


Belive what you want, thats pics is from an article i wrote about bad build HK packs, i have plenty more here, but you have already decided im lying so its no point for me posting more info in the subject of crappy HK packs.
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 02:17 AM
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I'm similar (my planes ranging from 18" micros to 2.5m gliders) and agree on this point.

I guess my main gripe - with all manufacturers presently - is that they give a 'burst rating'. This rating isn't standardized and is generally using current draw at a discharge rate which is harmful to the battery.

- boingk
Burst is one thing, like ESCs and electric motors they can be pushed realy hard at a peak without taking damage, same goes with batteries. What realy pushes a batterie is the continous current draw or how high the average current is during a flight. Many brands cant live up to the cont C rate on the lable, its often a made up number or refers to the cells C rate, not the actual complete battey pack, with solderings, welds, wires, connectors. You get a swan neck discharge curve with heat at the end, not able to deliver the capacity.

A 5Ah 65C battery with 4 mm gold bullets are silly.
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:43 PM
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Unexpected Design Change.

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Originally Posted by notime_3001 View Post
I need 5S 5000mAh high C Lipo batteries and wanted to know if any of the high dollar cost > $190 batteries are worth buying? How do these high cost batteries compare to the lower cost HobbyKing Nano-Tech or other low cost brands?
Well things have changed since my original post. After completing the retractable landing gear install there is not enough space above the nose wheel and servo for putting a 5S 5000mAH battery pack. I was considering installing the battery inside the EDF air intake plenum. But this would of required hacking up the planeís fuselage as well as removing the wing after each flight to gain access to the plenum. This is something I donít want to do. Therefore, Iím going to use 3 smaller battery packs of 2S 5000mAH or maybe two 2S and one 1S packs. Depends on whether the motor overheats. This way I can use the smaller areas of the fuselage and still have a 5S or possible 6S 5000mAH battery.

This now brings up the consistence of multiple battery packs connected in series and will one pack drain before another. Does anyone have answers to this?
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Old Jan 21, 2013, 01:57 PM
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If they're very closely matched and do not plan to rely upon LVC, you can do as you say. IMO, using a few smaller 5S packs makes for simpler wiring and is far more advisable than connecting different packs in series.
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