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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:03 AM
Team Hillbilly (UK)
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United Kingdom, England, Cambs
Joined Oct 2011
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Designers are the worst for plagiarism - I should know....we copy other ideas tweak and implement and add something new...

What makes patentable difference is something called an innovative step or something that is of new and unseen design...

For example the carbon wing tube fixing method could be seen as an innovative step and a patent could be applied for...but virtually most Arf's use this design in this fixed mid wing design...today so couldn't be applied for..

What does bug me is that from what I hear they have kitted this plane as the 3dhs plane was kitted to the customer (with the incidence meter) - now that is basically sticking two fingers up....

But its hardly burning people at the stake type deal....

The burning question in my mind is why is it so much cheaper??

Does this mean a) that the quality of materials and build - overall quality of this kit so much inferior to the design its trying to emulate

or b) that the plane is in fact the exact same item - and that there has been a massive mark-up by the originator which has now been exposed....?

My money is on 'a' the plane may look as good but won't be as good and won't be built as good and have the same tolerances which makes the original the better choice for the more discerning pilot...

This is how 3DHS should view this...you want the best and the real deal you come to us...if you want a diluted less functioning cheap copy go to them...
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 07:30 AM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Originally Posted by rayonnair View Post
Steve, I don't think we are in a position to comment yet. I'm not sure how much design work AJ put into the AJ Slick, and I'm no expert on aerodynamics, but wouldn't things like airfoils of the wings and tail be difficult to tell from pictures alone?
You are right.. from the photos it would be impossible to tell 100% for certain if the airfoil was a precise copy, although visually there is nothing to indicate it's not.

The reason why i'm confident to call it a copy is that IMHO it clearly is a copy. Even if the airfoil was slightly different that would not prevent it from being a copy.. And in any case I'd be pretty sure that whoever was copying it copied the airfoil too.. Why wouldnt he?
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 07:41 AM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Originally Posted by Space Bat View Post
The burning question in my mind is why is it so much cheaper??
All the stuff I alluded to earlier:
  • Lower (MUCH lower) customer support costs
  • Zero design and development cost
  • Cost of stocking spares (or not)
  • Lower transport costs (cost is ex-works in China)
  • Bigger buying power gets lower prices from manufacturer (or Hobbyking have their own manufacturing facility in China?)
  • No pilot sponsorship
  • No event sponsorship
  • A few differences to the package like no wing bags, crap stickers and very basic (or copied) build manual.
  • Some quality short cuts like cheaper covering film (based on my experience of the previous HK Slick 360).

The basic build quality of the plane remains to be seen, but based on the previous HK Slick there really might not be much in it. the 'old' HK Slick is very nicely built.

I honestly dont think the price difference is because 3DHS personnel are living the life of movie stars from over inflated prices of their models, but equally they do need to make a living.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 07:48 AM
Santi
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United States, MO, Clayton
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
All the stuff I alluded to earlier:
  • Lower (MUCH lower) customer support costs
  • Zero design and development cost
  • Cost of stocking spares (or not)
  • Lower transport costs (cost is ex-works in China)
  • Bigger buying power gets lower prices from manufacturer (or Hobbyking have their own manufacturing facility in China?)
  • No pilot sponsorship
  • No event sponsorship
  • A few differences to the package like no wing bags, crap stickers and very basic (or copied) build manual.
  • Some quality short cuts like cheaper covering film (based on my experience of the previous HK Slick 360).

I honestly dont think it's because 3DHS personnel are living the life of movie stars from over inflated prices of their models.
If it is a copy I would guess the build quality will be near the same, but agree with most of what you said above. They key one being. -Zero design and development costs.
Their massive operation surely gets better prices than mom and pop shipping crates to Pennsylvania a few times a year! Either way we really don't know yet.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Hoverin View Post
erkq, I really don't care what he does.... Upsetting dozens of people to right the wrongs apparently done to all his ""mates"" by 3DHS...
You won't find that post, edited way back.... I hope he got what he came for....
I said I didn't care. about all the political stuff. I want to know about the plane.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 08:27 AM
Santi
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Originally Posted by boredom.is.me View Post
I said I didn't care. about all the political stuff. I want to know about the plane.
For someone who doesn't care about the politics, you sure went on the immediate attack accusing 3dhs of "swearing and hanging up on your friends..."
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 08:52 AM
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Originally Posted by UCDme3D View Post
If it is a copy I would guess the build quality will be near the same, but agree with most of what you said above. They key one being. -Zero design and development costs.
Two people can build a house from the same plans... that doesn't mean build quality will be the same.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 10:02 AM
Santi
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Originally Posted by FireyFate View Post
Two people can build a house from the same plans... that doesn't mean build quality will be the same.
I'm all 3dhs on this, but I will say the last HK slick's material quality (wood, glue, covering, stuff done in china) was much closer to the quality of what we see from extreme flight and 3dhs.

If HK is reproducing exact replicas with the builders they have at half the price, that worry's me because it won't be like buying a fake rolex that will break in a few months, HK's copies will actually be very close to the original. Unlike the first HK slick that had a few major flight flaws preventing it from even being in the same discussion. A 15 year old who wants to "fly the best" will be tempted to save a few bucks due to budget. I know the loyal people won't, but there's always a market of budget spenders out there who will ignore the morals behind this issue.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 10:11 AM
Well, now that you know ...
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Grafton, Massachusetts, United States
Joined Sep 2004
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Originally Posted by UCDme3D View Post
A 15 year old who wants to "fly the best" will be tempted to save a few bucks due to budget. I know the loyal people won't, but there's always a market of budget spenders out there who will ignore the morals behind this issue.
Or worse, people who choose that route will contact and expect (demand?) help from 3DHS since it's "the same thing". Or complain that their "same" airframe flies like crap, or breaks easily, so the 3DHS planes must be that way too.

And another huge differentiator and benefit for me - you can actually talk to the guy that *designed* the airframe. But why would he want to help those who effectively ripped him off?

We're behind you AJ.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 10:12 AM
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Originally Posted by UCDme3D View Post
For someone who doesn't care about the politics, you sure went on the immediate attack accusing 3dhs of "swearing and hanging up on your friends..."
I didn't accuse. I said they did. In fact we have the conversations saved.
Either way, I just want to see this plane. Stop trolling me.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 03:06 PM
Yin & Yang
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Don't blame the Chinese for selling U S customers what they want cheaper than American companies. But I will warn those that buy this stuff that when they put the truly innovative designers like AJ and Chris out of business there will be no new awesome designs to copy, so they'll re-introduce the old crap they currently sell as new and innovative to people with no other choices. I bought 2 models from HK when I got back into this hobby 2 years ago, they weren't knock offs of anything but they were junk... I said never again and want to keep saying it. To that end I will continue to make airframe purchases from the EF and 3DHS shops. Both equally as dedicated to providing us with quality we can see, feel and more importantly fly.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 04:52 PM
can't buy vaporware
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Originally Posted by Liberty10 View Post
when they put the truly innovative designers like AJ and Chris out of business.
Just wondering, Chris who? If you mean Extreme Flight, I don't get how that applies.

Nobody is knocking off EF planes yet.

As far as competition...remember Curtis Mathis televisions...they were the best, made in the U.S.

As for Hobby King, I've seen some junk, but their other Slick is not junk. It's not EF, but it's not junk.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 05:28 PM
"Get off the runway!"
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Originally Posted by LoneWolfRC View Post
Just wondering, Chris who? If you mean Extreme Flight, I don't get how that applies.

Nobody is knocking off EF planes yet.

As far as competition...remember Curtis Mathis televisions...they were the best, made in the U.S.

As for Hobby King, I've seen some junk, but their other Slick is not junk. It's not EF, but it's not junk.
I do...but today's televisions coming from China run circles arount the sets from the '60's. Japan used to sell junk electronics in the '50's, but in the '60's the quality came up as the Japanese economy grew. Same will apply to China. The planes from China will only improve. The next 10 years will be tough on Americam R/C design and sales companies.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 05:53 PM
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I'm not saying they have but there is no holy ground. You should place plenty of emphasis on the word yet my friend. There is a buck to be made so someone will. And you fly EF so what do you think. Would a knock off sell? Almost as good is good enough when your 33% cheaper, to most people anyway.
Of course starting with 3DHS only makes sense. They have great brand recognition especially with their Slicks. It took about a week of looking into flying again to find out about 3DHS. I didn't know EF existed for almost a year. that's why my first 3D airplane was the 42" Slick. I didn't know EF existed then. Had to ask someone at the field where he got his 48" Edge. IMO it's just a matter of time before someone has an EXP something to sell. And I also doubt it's some factory just deciding to build them. Can't say it would surprise me if you were right and HK is owned by someone here in the USA. We have no shortage of greedy investors.
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Old Nov 20, 2012, 06:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Liberty10 View Post
Can't say it would surprise me if you were right and HK is owned by someone here in the USA. We have no shortage of greedy investors.
The owner is an Australian.
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