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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by ZAGNUT View Post
yeah, their leaders are now going on about how this victory proves that armed confrontation works and that they'll soon be marching on jerusalem and taking back all their lands....also, the evil zionists will never set foot in gaza again, or something to that effect.
It's the Arab way.

Anwar Sadat was assassinated at his annual parade celebrating Egypt's victory against Israel in 1973.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by grumpy42 View Post
Truly reprehensible... How about a little perspective - 140 dead Palestinians, a least 840 Palestinians wounded. 5 dead Israelis, dozens wounded. And then there is this...

'Nuff said....
Gosh it almost seems like you hold an expectation of some kind of parity in warfare, or expect Isaelis to do more dying to make it fair.

Should US troops do more dying to show parity in other conflicts?
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Holding someone responsible for something is not the same as them being responsible for something. That's Israel's lame excuse for attacking Gaza.

Dusty
Technically your leading statement is true, however this case is not one where this problem exists. Israel is holding those attacking it responsible for attacking it.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
I'm not exactly sure what you're talking about here, but let's try to keep the discussion in context. In the context of someone shooting someone else, the person who pulled the trigger is responsible for doing so. The responsibility does not fall on the police or government, as is being suggested here, in that Hamas should be responsible for someone else's actions.

Dusty
They are responsible for what they allow in their borders. Either they can attack those attacking Israel, and stop them, or Israel will do it for them with complete legitimacy
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by grumpy42 View Post
Exactly. Neither side is evil nor entirely the victim. It is a complicated issue. I was merely countering the overly simplistic view seemingly permeating this thread that the Israelis are helpless victims besieged by ruthless monsters willing to strap explosives to children.

Hamas is quite frankly stupid with their highly useless rockets. They literally cannot hit the broad side of a barn. It is like poking a bear with a stick. Israeli, on the other hand, has at its disposal some of the most sophisticated weapon systems in the world. They have no excuse to be racking up such a high civilian casualty count. And both side are playing the "putting civilians in harms way" game. Also, it is more than a little coincidental that this occurred just after the US elections and before the Israeli elections.
Yes, reality is permeating this thread. Totally evil barbarians who slaughter at will using any possible means to do so with innocents not as collateral but as fully intended targets attack Israel. It's precisely as simple as it appears on that front.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
It's the Arab way.

Anwar Sadat was assassinated at his annual parade celebrating Egypt's victory against Israel in 1973.
They have tasted nothing but defeat and humiliation for so long, even the idea the Israelis don't have the stomach (to my joy) to continue killing them is considered a victory. Tragic, to the extreme. I wish there were an easy solution. But I must confess, even though I usually pull for the Palestinians, if I were an Israeli citizen, I'd probably want to see them crushed. It reminds me of the movei Cool Hand Luke where the warden says:

Quote:
"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men you just can't reach, so you get what we had here last week which is the way he wants it. Well, he gets it. And I don't like it any more than you men."
Lest we forget what's been going on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...acks_on_Israel
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by grumpy42 View Post
Truly reprehensible... How about a little perspective - 140 dead Palestinians, a least 840 Palestinians wounded. 5 dead Israelis, dozens wounded. And then there is this...

'Nuff said....

Those numbers simply prove that Israel is far more skilled at military matters and when forced to defend themselves they are very good at it. Hamas seems to be run by the Three Stooges.

Nuff said.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 10:56 PM
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Those numbers simply prove that Israel is far more skilled at military matters and when forced to defend themselves they are very good at it. Hamas seems to be run by the Three Stooges.

Nuff said.
If Hamas got as much money as Israel does from the US, they would be far more "skilled at military matters" too, except they, being a service organization would have spent most of it on the people.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:01 PM
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[QUOTE= except they, being a service organization would have spent most of it on the people.[/QUOTE]

Yep, and a very few corrupt people at that.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:13 PM
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Originally Posted by AbuSabri View Post
If Hamas got as much money as Israel does from the US, they would be far more "skilled at military matters" too, except they, being a service organization would have spent most of it on the people.
Sorry, but the facts don't back you up. Think about how expensive it is to smuggle all that material in to build their rockets. If they were really a service organization, they wouldn't spend a single penny on rockets, and give it all to the people. They are an organization in which the militants allow the humanitarians among them to operate to keep up the impression of being a service organization. Much like Iran's government under Ahmadinejad.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 11:51 PM
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Sorry, but the facts don't back you up. Think about how expensive it is to smuggle all that material in to build their rockets. If they were really a service organization, they wouldn't spend a single penny on rockets, and give it all to the people. They are an organization in which the militants allow the humanitarians among them to operate to keep up the impression of being a service organization. Much like Iran's government under Ahmadinejad.
Hamas was elected because of their community involvement and because Fatah has a reputation for being one of the world's most corrupt political parties.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 12:02 AM
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Hamas was elected because of their community involvement and because Fatah has a reputation for being one of the world's most corrupt political parties.
From what I've read from objective third parties in Gaza during the last election, Hamas was elected at the barrel of a gun. To some people, they were the lesser of two evils. But to most, they were the bigger thug. Humanitarian efforts have been largely overlooked to obtain more weapons, and dig more tunnels. Hamas is like the Mafia. Go into a neighborhood where the Mafia is active and everyone willl tell you how much they contribute to the community. No one wants to get caught saying how much they take from the community, because they might just end up sleeping with the fishes. This is a reality in Gaza, as those poor souls getting dragged around the streets found out.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 12:12 AM
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Originally Posted by Real Ira View Post
Those numbers simply prove that Israel is far more skilled at military matters and when forced to defend themselves they are very good at it. Hamas seems to be run by the Three Stooges.

Nuff said.
Riiiiiiiiiight..... What utter nonsense...
First, try understanding the context... My post was in response to your highly offensive cartoon. Secondly, it is not too hard to be better at killing when you are supplied by the US with some of the most sophisticated weapon systems in the world.

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Gosh it almost seems like you hold an expectation of some kind of parity in warfare, or expect Isaelis to do more dying to make it fair.
Not at all - my post was in response to a highly offensive cartoon that depicted Israelis as complete victims cowering in fear. I was just illustrating which side has more to fear and from whom - which makes it all the more silly for Hamas to keep poking the bear...

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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Yes, reality is permeating this thread. Totally evil barbarians who slaughter at will using any possible means to do so with innocents not as collateral but as fully intended targets attack Israel. It's precisely as simple as it appears on that front.
Riiiiiiiiiiiiight... Who was targeting homes and news agencies? Who actually has the ability to target with any accuracy....
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 12:59 AM
THE ЯUSSIANS ARE COMING!
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Originally Posted by thunder1 View Post
From what I've read from objective third parties in Gaza during the last election, Hamas was elected at the barrel of a gun. To some people, they were the lesser of two evils. But to most, they were the bigger thug. Humanitarian efforts have been largely overlooked to obtain more weapons, and dig more tunnels. Hamas is like the Mafia. Go into a neighborhood where the Mafia is active and everyone willl tell you how much they contribute to the community. No one wants to get caught saying how much they take from the community, because they might just end up sleeping with the fishes. This is a reality in Gaza, as those poor souls getting dragged around the streets found out.

PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ELECTIONS--CHALLENGES OF HAMAS' VICTORY
__________

STAFF TRIP REPORT TO THE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS

UNITED STATES SENATE

One Hundred Ninth Congress
Second Session
January 2006

Quote:
As an official Palestinian Election Observer with the
National Democratic Institute and Carter Center (NDI/CC) from
January 20-27, 2006, Ms. Kim Savit, Senior Professional Staff
Member of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, witnessed the
elections process first hand, talked with delegation experts,
and met with United States, Palestinian, and Israeli officials
before, during and after the elections. An NDI/CC Preliminary
Statement on the elections results published January 26, 2006,
(attached at Annex I) reflects the International Observer
Delegation's relatively positive assessment of the election
administration, voting and counting process
. The political,
economic, and security challenges presented by Hamas' victory,
however, are being hotly debated around the globe.
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Old Nov 23, 2012, 02:23 AM
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Originally Posted by rcposter View Post
PALESTINIAN LEGISLATIVE COUNCIL ELECTIONS--CHALLENGES OF HAMAS' VICTORY
__________

STAFF TRIP REPORT TO THE COMMITTEE ON FOREIGN RELATIONS

UNITED STATES SENATE

One Hundred Ninth Congress
Second Session
January 2006
I don't deny the elections were peaceful and orderly. Vote for Hamas if you know what's good for you. I'm sure Hamas' leader learned a lot from his Syrian Baathist hosts. Saddam was elected peacefully as well. He got 100% of the vote if I recall.

The pressure exerted by Hamas on the civilian population during the Second Intifada was intense, rooting out suspected collaborators and those who would accept peace with Israel. The year following the elections tells the real tale, running gun battles, kidnappings, violence galore. Yeah, they rule with the barrel of a gun. The people can only stand by and accept their miserable fate.
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