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Old Nov 10, 2012, 04:08 PM
Pants Up, Don't Loot!
Park_Flyer's Avatar
United States, VA, Virginia Beach
Joined Jun 2005
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Juan Williams made the same points on the radio the other day. In fact, his sentiments almost mirror the OP article.

In my view, the republicans/conservatives (in fact politics in general) need to be completely divorced from the distracting issues of abortion and gay marriage to be successful. The states and society in general will (and have) sort these things out. Making them part of a presidential election and putting them into a party platform is ludicrous.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 09:03 PM
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Joined Jul 2004
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Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
" Goldwater Republicans " is my quote, not "ALL Republicans." And unfortunately for conservatives that aren't insane, the entire leadership of the GOP is comprised of Goldwater Republicans.

Ohhhh....I thought this thread was gonna be about FOSTER Brooks.




Foster Brooks roasts Hubert Humphrey (5 min 45 sec)
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 11:04 PM
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Joined Oct 2010
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Originally Posted by tolladay View Post
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/09/op...f=general&_r=0

I think he makes some excellent points, and offers a positive way for conservatives to embrace a larger electorate.
I am curious, due to your stated location in your avatar ,as to whether you personally voted for the recent tax raise in California.
I'm also curious as to your reason why you voted whatever way you did on that issue.
Do you care to share some thoughts with us on that?
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:42 AM
fix-it-up chappie
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Valley Village, CA
Joined Jan 2002
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Originally Posted by Treeline View Post
I am curious, due to your stated location in your avatar ,as to whether you personally voted for the recent tax raise in California.
I'm also curious as to your reason why you voted whatever way you did on that issue.
Do you care to share some thoughts with us on that?
Slightly OT, but I've never been shy about my views....

Do you mean, did I vote to raise taxes? Sure. Why? Because we need the money.

(Although at this point it might be moot as one of the things that came about from this past election (and this is even after a redistricting which was recently redrawn so the districts did not favor the Democrats so much, and which I gladly supported) is that we now have a super majority of Democrats in both houses of our state government. This allows them to raise taxes without subjecting the measure to a popular vote (what we call here a proposition). I don't know if they will, but at least they can. One of the hold-overs of that most pernicious Proposition 13 of ours was a little line that said the state could not raise taxes short of a super majority vote in both houses, or a state proposition. But I digress...)

I have a child in public school, and have seen the effects every year of our state's budget woes. Every year they cut back more teachers. Every year the teachers have to go through that "am I on the list" fear. And this is just one small sector of the entire state. We used to have a 20 kids/class mandate in elementary school, which was a requirement to attain some kind of matching funding (federal, I believe, but I don't recall). Most of the schools around here (Los Angeles area) had to drop that because there simply wasn't enough money to pay for the extra teachers, which means they also lost the matching funds. The transition from 20 students/class to 35 was without a doubt detrimental to our son's education.

As it happens there were three different propositions to raise taxes this last election. Two of them passed. The first one (#30) raised taxes only on those making $250k/year of more, and essentially dumped the money into the general fund. Incidentally, our recent state budget was passed with the idea that #30 would pass, and the funds would be available. If it had failed, then there would have been almost immediate cuts in the schools.

The second one #38 was similar to #30, but was a broader tax, so it would have effected almost everyone who pays income tax, not just the rich. It also had provisions so most of the money had to be spend on public schools, and not just go into the state's general fund.

The last one #39, was one that changed how certain multi-state businesses did their taxes. In essence, what used to be an optional process (businesses could structure their taxes one of two ways) was made so that they could only do their taxes one way, the way that was the least preferential to the business, or the more preferential to the state, depending upon one's point of view. This measure does not effect all businesses in the state, only a few very large ones that manufacture and sell products in the rest of the US.

And then there were some wonderfully arcane provisions so that if #30 and #38 both passed, certain aspects of their bills would become laws, but outer aspects wouldn't.

As it turned out, #30 and #39 passed, but #38 didn't. I voted for all three, assuming that not all three would pass, but wanting to make sure if a tax came, it also effected us. Since I directly benefit from such a tax (see my reasoning above), I don't mind having a little more skin in the game. While I make a pretty penny, alas I don't make enough to hit the minimum requirement for #30.

Does that answer your question, or were you just trying in a round-about way to determine if I am liberal or conservative?
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 10:46 AM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,650 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by tolladay View Post
Slightly OT, but I've never been shy about my views....

Do you mean, did I vote to raise taxes? Sure. Why? Because we need the money.

(Although at this point it might be moot as one of the things that came about from this past election (and this is even after a redistricting which was recently redrawn so the districts did not favor the Democrats so much, and which I gladly supported) is that we now have a super majority of Democrats in both houses of our state government. This allows them to raise taxes without subjecting the measure to a popular vote (what we call here a proposition). I don't know if they will, but at least they can. One of the hold-overs of that most pernicious Proposition 13 of ours was a little line that said the state could not raise taxes short of a super majority vote in both houses, or a state proposition. But I digress...)

I have a child in public school, and have seen the effects every year of our state's budget woes. Every year they cut back more teachers. Every year the teachers have to go through that "am I on the list" fear. And this is just one small sector of the entire state. We used to have a 20 kids/class mandate in elementary school, which was a requirement to attain some kind of matching funding (federal, I believe, but I don't recall). Most of the schools around here (Los Angeles area) had to drop that because there simply wasn't enough money to pay for the extra teachers, which means they also lost the matching funds. The transition from 20 students/class to 35 was without a doubt detrimental to our son's education.

As it happens there were three different propositions to raise taxes this last election. Two of them passed. The first one (#30) raised taxes only on those making $250k/year of more, and essentially dumped the money into the general fund. Incidentally, our recent state budget was passed with the idea that #30 would pass, and the funds would be available. If it had failed, then there would have been almost immediate cuts in the schools.

The second one #38 was similar to #30, but was a broader tax, so it would have effected almost everyone who pays income tax, not just the rich. It also had provisions so most of the money had to be spend on public schools, and not just go into the state's general fund.

The last one #39, was one that changed how certain multi-state businesses did their taxes. In essence, what used to be an optional process (businesses could structure their taxes one of two ways) was made so that they could only do their taxes one way, the way that was the least preferential to the business, or the more preferential to the state, depending upon one's point of view. This measure does not effect all businesses in the state, only a few very large ones that manufacture and sell products in the rest of the US.

And then there were some wonderfully arcane provisions so that if #30 and #38 both passed, certain aspects of their bills would become laws, but outer aspects wouldn't.

As it turned out, #30 and #39 passed, but #38 didn't. I voted for all three, assuming that not all three would pass, but wanting to make sure if a tax came, it also effected us. Since I directly benefit from such a tax (see my reasoning above), I don't mind having a little more skin in the game. While I make a pretty penny, alas I don't make enough to hit the minimum requirement for #30.

Does that answer your question, or were you just trying in a round-about way to determine if I am liberal or conservative?
Good post Toll
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 01:15 PM
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United States, OH, Brilliant
Joined Sep 2011
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Originally Posted by tolladay View Post
Do you mean, did I vote to raise taxes? Sure. Why? Because we need the money.
I'm in the same boat as you Toll, though I don't have kids yet I plan to in the future and when that day comes I want to guarantee that my kids have decent public school to go to. Or, if we enroll them in private schools, that their peers in public schools are educated well enough to be functional members of society.

Also Prop 39 did have that weird earmarking of the funds for energy as a priority and education second, but funding for BOTH of those are needed anyways. Taxation through the initiative system is bad per se, but having a state government that's completely crippled by Prop 13 and a state GOP filled with whiny babies is worse.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 01:16 PM
Cat Rack
MtnGoat's Avatar
Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
1,478 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Park_Flyer View Post
Juan Williams made the same points on the radio the other day. In fact, his sentiments almost mirror the OP article.

In my view, the republicans/conservatives (in fact politics in general) need to be completely divorced from the distracting issues of abortion and gay marriage to be successful. The states and society in general will (and have) sort these things out. Making them part of a presidential election and putting them into a party platform is ludicrous.
Murder is not a distraction.

The Dems made them part of an election and put them in a party platform.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 03:19 PM
fix-it-up chappie
tolladay's Avatar
Valley Village, CA
Joined Jan 2002
2,262 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Murder is not a distraction.

The Dems made them part of an election and put them in a party platform.
I think it might be a case that the dems were happy to highlight every time a Repub opened his mouth about abortion within the narrow confines of rape. Playing the views of a few far right conservatives, and using those to paint the entire Republican party (especially its presidential nominee) with its wide brush was one of the more fruitful things the Dems did in the election.

Of course it wouldn't have been near the issue if a few conservatives hadn't given such excellent ammo to use against the party, and themselves.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 03:31 PM
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Yes, the "many degrees of rape" chart was quite poignant.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 06:19 PM
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United States, OH, Brilliant
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Hey Toll, check this out, Bill Kristol Fox News went rogue

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/11/bill..._millionaires/

Maybe there's hope after all?
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 06:28 PM
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Milwaukee, WI
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Kristol is the voice of reason!!?? The wheels have come off for sure.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:02 PM
fix-it-up chappie
tolladay's Avatar
Valley Village, CA
Joined Jan 2002
2,262 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLittle View Post
Hey Toll, check this out, Bill Kristol Fox News went rogue

http://www.salon.com/2012/11/11/bill..._millionaires/

Maybe there's hope after all?
Yes, I believe so. Let us hope more are willing to think outside of the box the Tea Party has put them in.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:11 PM
Cat Rack
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Lyle, WA
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Changing principle in order to gain power is essentially corruption in service of power.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:18 PM
fix-it-up chappie
tolladay's Avatar
Valley Village, CA
Joined Jan 2002
2,262 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Changing principle in order to gain power is essentially corruption in service of power.
Keep telling yourself that and maybe it will become true.

In the mean time the rest of us will have to suffer with the idea that a representative sometimes has to listen to his constituents sometimes more than his ideology. Crazy, I know, but it happens.
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Old Nov 11, 2012, 11:47 PM
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Mtngoat is an Ayn Randian objectivist. I think this quote sums it up best:

Quote:
There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs.
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