SMALL - espritmodel.com SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Dec 16, 2012, 07:58 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Modisc, You got me wanting to do the windings again! If I have a short I may wind as in your discription, make sinse over what I have done. I started on one tooth then went to the second tooth, starting in the center and wrapping either side would make it even a neater job.
Where can a person get a new stator like your green one with the T top arms instead of a Y top arms?
Tom
PS: I just weighed the stator, it was 145 grams empty, is now 246.5 grams full, the wire I took off weighs 71 grams, thats a 30 gram increase in wire!
I am sorry that i missed this post. It seems you are not doing what i, or I think powercroco's 4225 is probably the same, described in those 3 pics.

I personally prefer the scorpion's Y shaped head, it seems it can concentrated the magnetic field better than T shaped head. When i bought my 2nd handed scorpion 4035 12N10P, i found the stator is badly assembled, not very symmetric. So i bought one from a so-called CC retailer in China, which is not approved by many here. I am frustrated by those in this thread: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1730069
the same company sold me the 4035 stator assembled with 0.2 laminations, but i am not sure about the quality of the steel of these laminations since it is very cheap indeed, only about 6 USD not include shipping.

here is the link: http://trade.taobao.com/trade/detail...51767848550872
you can see the price in RMB and the pic of the stator.


I suggest you stick to the scorpion stator since it is surely a better quality, as long as the stator is well assembled.
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Last edited by modisc; Dec 16, 2012 at 08:21 PM. Reason: add a link
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Dec 16, 2012, 08:13 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
how many mill thick? I can find 1 mill and .005 thousands at $48 for a 12 x 24 inches (no way) I have some 3phase insulator paper that has clear plastic in the center I used, its sticky when I peel off the paper both sides. I winded from the bottom up CW then from the bottom up CCW is why the jump over like the drawing schematic above. I tested winding by threading the wire through the slot under the crossover wire and didn't like the work so winding up is easier. This is how I am doing #2 motor. below

Modisc, I tried like your 3rd step dwg but it is CW on both sides starting from the center bottom.
I see how you do it, and why you have a jumping wire on one end. Actually, one aim of using STSD or its varient technique is to eliminate the jumping wires, since it sometimes makes the winding difficult and will waste some slot room. From your pic, I can see that in your way, you are achieving CW in one tooth and CW in the other, when seeing from one end of the wire to the other end of the wire, instead of seeing from the center of the wire to the 2 ends of the wire. I personally do not think this is correct. In your way, the 2 teeth taken by the single wire, actually have the same winding direction. I do think you should use what I drew, which will give you 2 oppositely winded coil on the 2 teeth taken by a single wire that fits the dLRK formula AabBCcaABbcC (note the Aa, bB....)

the kapton i use is 0.125-0.15 mm in thickness. and it is about 10 USD for 500mm X 500mm not including shipping for the 0.15mm thick film. I once burn one of my winded stator in fire to remove the old my windings, and it film can well stand at least 300 degree C, only a minor color change that is hardly noticeable.
The DM insulation paper will melt down at around 250 degree i guess, cause that is what happened when i remove the original scorpion windings by direct heat using flame.

here is the link for kapton: http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?id=7065351825
you can see it is 110 RMB for 500mm X 1m, 0.15mm thick. I normally use 0.125mm thick kapton for smaller wires (less than 1.2mm in diameter). I bought these 0.15mm kapton mainly for thicker wire like 2.24mm wire. Some of my rewinded servo motors (inrunners ) are using such a big wire.

I strongly recommend kapton and i have been using that ever since i saw it used on one Powercroco's inrunner. To note that you need to sander the edges of the stator teeth, when using kapton, to make sure that the pulling of the wire will not cut the film at the edges of the teeth.
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Last edited by modisc; Dec 16, 2012 at 08:24 PM. Reason: add a link
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 16, 2012, 11:36 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
ApexAero's Avatar
Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
4,501 Posts
How does this style look? plan on yy
the dust is from the graupner prop I used to push and straighten the wires
ApexAero is online now Find More Posts by ApexAero
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by ApexAero; Dec 16, 2012 at 11:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:15 AM
Registered User
manuel v's Avatar
Mexico, BC, Mexicali
Joined Aug 2004
5,333 Posts
Nice winding Apex.

Im use this metode for six wires.

Post 14.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=868248
manuel v is online now Find More Posts by manuel v
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:50 AM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
How does this style look? plan on yy
the dust is from the graupner prop I used to push and straighten the wires
It does not look right, my friend. in this way, you are having 2 adjacent coils flowing to the same direction!!! By looking at Manuel V's pics, it does not contain such a "horizontally" lied jumping wires like yours.

Am I wrong here? anyone?
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:43 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
ApexAero's Avatar
Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
4,501 Posts
Modsic, I cannot conceive of any other wind that starts at the bottom of the arm and winds upward. The other technique shows the cross over at the top of the arm, this means You will have to thread the wire under the top wire, not just wrap it from the bottom up. My picture shows the arm on the left is CW(A), cross over at the bottom, right side is CCW(b) both wires come out between the arms. I don't feel adequate to do a different winding presently. Unless I go back to the STSD winding- too many connections for me.
ApexAero is online now Find More Posts by ApexAero
RCG Plus Member
Old Dec 17, 2012, 08:15 AM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Modsic, I cannot conceive of any other wind that starts at the bottom of the arm and winds upward. The other technique shows the cross over at the top of the arm, this means You will have to thread the wire under the top wire, not just wrap it from the bottom up. My picture shows the arm on the left is CW(A), cross over at the bottom, right side is CCW(b) both wires come out between the arms. I don't feel adequate to do a different winding presently. Unless I go back to the STSD winding- too many connections for me.
What i mean is, what you have done, results in CW in the left arm and CW in the right arm, which is not right for dLRK. when you look at the current flow in that wire, you need to start from one end of the wire, and towards the other end of the wire, you will see the current flow on the two arms are the SAME!!!

Look at the pic i posted on #122, is that what you have done? If so, then it is not right for dLRK. Let's confirm this issue first, before you proceed to do the rest of the windings.
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 10:59 AM
Registered User
Fourdan's Avatar
Antony (France)
Joined Sep 2003
3,004 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by modisc View Post
It does not look right, my friend. in this way, you are having 2 adjacent coils flowing to the same direction!!! By looking at Manuel V's pics, it does not contain such a "horizontally" lied jumping wires like yours.

Am I wrong here? anyone?
Hi
I agree with Modisc
In-Out wires making a pair of adjacent coils CANNOT exit the same slot.
(because currents are going opposite and cancel in that center slot)
Wrong winding on the picture post #123
Louis
Fourdan is offline Find More Posts by Fourdan
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 12:28 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
ApexAero's Avatar
Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
4,501 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by modisc View Post
Let me clarify my point on the jumping wires using the following pic:

1st you put a U shaped wire on one tooth, with the reflecton point of the U shaped wire, being the center point of that wire. Then you wind the tooth which is taken by the U shaped wire first, using half of the U shaped wire. Then you use another half of the U shaped wire, to wind the adjacent tooth. So the jumping wire between the 2 adjacent teeth, is perfectly hidden in between the teeth, which results in no room loss.
I think I understand, the light bulb came on! In step 2, the left side arm, from the bottom up to the top-wind CCW , Now the right side uses the same rotation of wire but! looking from the bottom of the arm up it winds CW. Is this the concept I need to get correct?
ApexAero is online now Find More Posts by ApexAero
RCG Plus Member
Old Dec 17, 2012, 01:32 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
ApexAero's Avatar
Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
4,501 Posts
Ok I'm getting cross eyed guys.
I cannot figure how to cross over neatly on a single layer two arms from the bottom unledss I start on one arm wind up then bend the wire down as it returns to the back of the stator, comes out to the next arm and reverses direction so my first wind needs to be neater/cleaner in its presentation if I am to continue winding two arm pairs from the bottom of the slots like I see in the yy drawings
ApexAero is online now Find More Posts by ApexAero
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by ApexAero; Dec 17, 2012 at 02:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 02:55 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
17,131 Posts
Tom,

I noticed that the image you posted back on post #107 has a winding scheme on it that is "aABbcCAabBCc" but that your windings in the image are actually done to the scheme of "AabBCcaABbcC".

In post #110 modisc said this:

"..For 12N10P, there is only one alphabet formula (which has the highest winding factor), that is AabBCcaABbcC, and this is dLRK, or a 2-layer distributed winding..."

So even though the scheme on the image you posted is not the right scheme to use, from the way the wires are drawn it looks like you intended to wind it by the AabBCcaABbcC that modisc says has to be used. And when I compared this to the wind that Dr. Ralph Okon did in the Scorpion 4225 tutorial, I found that he had also used the AabBCcaABbcC scheme.

I went to the http://i.caendle.de/dev/test2/ winding scheme calculator and entered 12 slots, 10 poles, 2 layers, and "Y" term to see what scheme would be shown there. That produces the first image (12N10P_AabBCcaABbcC_wye.jpg) below. And that is a standard 12N10P dLRK Wye wind and it is also marked as being the AabBCcaABbcC scheme.

I know from previous use that if I have an wind image there like that at the test2 page, if I change from the Simple to the Advanced mode it will open the Scheme window, show the current scheme, and where a winding scheme can be edited or entered manually.

So I changed to the Advanced mode and that looked as seen in the second image (12N10P_AabBCcaABbcC_wye_adv.jpg). The only thing that changed is the Scheme window replaced the slots and the termination choice window is gone.

I then changed the winding scheme in the Scheme window from AabBCcaABbcC to AabBC/caABbcC (adding the "/" to the middle of the scheme) to change the scheme to a two part motor (I think that is the proper terminology but am not sure). That changed the image again and I realized that I was looking at the same six groups of windings as Okon has used on the 4225 wind. You can see that image as the third image (12N10P_AabBCcpartaABbcC_wye_adv.jpg) below. And I also believe that is the wind you are trying to do, is it not?

The image does not show any terminations on it yet, I am still sort of "studying" that... Dr. Okon describes the terminations over on the 4225 demo but I'm a little confused by the way they are stated.

But I think the third image will give you the wind you want and with the 12 wire ends all emerging as they should.

I don't know if this is helping or raining confusion on you. My apologies if it is the latter.

Jack
jackerbes is offline Find More Posts by jackerbes
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 04:16 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
ApexAero's Avatar
Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
4,501 Posts
Yes Jack, the third dwg is what I modeled the first motor after, The test wind is what I was trying to accomplish and make it simpler, Modisc and Fourdan shot me down.
So when leg arm1 and arm2 fire together are they not north and south or do they fire north north? Then poses the question, why doesn't my test wind fire as it is supposed to?
What happens if I put a zig in the between slot bottom and wind each arm CW from the bottom up to the top? as in the pic
ApexAero is online now Find More Posts by ApexAero
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by ApexAero; Dec 17, 2012 at 06:01 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 06:49 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
Tom,

I noticed that the image you posted back on post #107 has a winding scheme on it that is "aABbcCAabBCc" but that your windings in the image are actually done to the scheme of "AabBCcaABbcC".

In post #110 modisc said this:

"..For 12N10P, there is only one alphabet formula (which has the highest winding factor), that is AabBCcaABbcC, and this is dLRK, or a 2-layer distributed winding..."

So even though the scheme on the image you posted is not the right scheme to use, from the way the wires are drawn it looks like you intended to wind it by the AabBCcaABbcC that modisc says has to be used. And when I compared this to the wind that Dr. Ralph Okon did in the Scorpion 4225 tutorial, I found that he had also used the AabBCcaABbcC scheme.

I went to the http://i.caendle.de/dev/test2/ winding scheme calculator and entered 12 slots, 10 poles, 2 layers, and "Y" term to see what scheme would be shown there. That produces the first image (12N10P_AabBCcaABbcC_wye.jpg) below. And that is a standard 12N10P dLRK Wye wind and it is also marked as being the AabBCcaABbcC scheme.

Jack
Hi Jack,

I have to clarify this issue again about the "symmetry".
AabBCcaABbcC = aABbcCAabBCc = AacCBbaACcbB = abBCcaABbcCA
the above formula are exactly the same.
formula_1 to 2: interchange all upper and lower cases
formula_1 to 3: Interchange b/B and c/C
formula_1 to 4: put the first "A" to the tail.
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 06:54 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
I think I understand, the light bulb came on! In step 2, the left side arm, from the bottom up to the top-wind CCW , Now the right side uses the same rotation of wire but! looking from the bottom of the arm up it winds CW. Is this the concept I need to get correct?
I think you might be right, but as i said, you can simply put your eyes on one end of the wire first, and following the wire, till the other end of the wire. In this process, if on one tooth, your eyes move following a CW direction around that tooth; and on the other tooth, it is a CCW direction; then you have done the right thing!!!

I suggest you do not use the "bottom / up" to understand the direction of the current flow through the wires. You just "follow" the wire. It will be much clearer, from my understanding.

It is a good thing that you still have extra wires ^^
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Reply With Quote
Old Dec 17, 2012, 07:01 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
888 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Ok I'm getting cross eyed guys.
I cannot figure how to cross over neatly on a single layer two arms from the bottom unledss I start on one arm wind up then bend the wire down as it returns to the back of the stator, comes out to the next arm and reverses direction so my first wind needs to be neater/cleaner in its presentation if I am to continue winding two arm pairs from the bottom of the slots like I see in the yy drawings
My suggestion is, you do not need to worry about the connections now, and do not look at the drawings for any type of connection. For now, you can simply focus on winding the 6 wires onto the 12 teeth, with each wire taken 2 adjacent teeth.
Tell me you can understand the 3 steps i posted on 119#? You need to try it, just one wire, and you will feel the benefits of winding like that, and how the jumping wires from one tooth to the other, is hidden in between.

After you are done with the 12 teeth with 6 wires, we can help you to do the right connection of the 12 ends, to get you a YY.
modisc is offline Find More Posts by modisc
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
For Sale SOLD Scorpion HK-4035-500KV new in box bluedevil2001 Aircraft - Electric - Power Systems (FS/W) 2 Jun 04, 2012 12:48 PM
Scorpion HKIII-4035-450 New, Never Used! $225 Shipped! jmpwnd Aircraft - Electric - Power Systems (FS/W) 1 May 21, 2012 02:33 PM
Discussion Kv problems. scorpion 4035 and 4025 12N8P, rewind issue. modisc Electric Motor Design and Construction 15 Dec 27, 2011 03:10 AM
Discussion Rewinding Scorpion 4035 kit HSC2 Electric Motor Design and Construction 8 Jun 10, 2010 01:52 AM
For Sale 100 Croco 40mm Laminations. ryanl2006 Aircraft - Electric - Power Systems (FS/W) 0 May 09, 2007 08:54 PM