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Old Nov 13, 2012, 07:20 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Nice looking pliers. But I'm still the guy that has not idea how they are using them in rewinding.

Are those Sargent brand? I have a couple of their parallel jaw side cutting pliers similar to those, been using them for years. They are not duck billed and don' have that thumbscrew.

What do you do, grab the wire at the spot where corners of the arm would be and make that bend in with the tool?

Jack
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 04:39 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
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After watching that vid, the fellow slips the thinned jaws between the teeth and squeezes the wires to make them flat and neat. Just a slight squeeze to neaten up the winding. New question, how tight to the square tooth end should the wire lay? The tooth is square while the wire wraps around it, how tight do I need to go? The 3phase re builders had coils of wire they were inserting then hammering (packing) tight into the slots of the large in runner with shim tools
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 05:37 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Also, What I have is 10p and 8p bells, no 14p. Would/could you run a ditto wind schematic calc for a LRK-y 10p? I was reviewing the one you posted on the first page of the thread and see it is for a 14p. I am not sure on the wind direction with a 10p bell if it may change from an A' to an a' etc.
also too, I added the specs from an 800 hk3 I found to match one of the motors, Still don't know what I'm looking at, but 13H matches the specs.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 07:40 AM
Inspiration
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United States, MI, Ann Arbor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
What do you think of these, looks simple to modify.
This type is ideal. I used this forcep for up to 2.24mm wire, and it works well.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 08:00 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
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When I did spreadsheet that at the start of the discussion it was as an example, I had no idea what the actual winding configuration was on the motor we were talking about. Nor did I know the turn count, and I did not know whether the turns counts mentioned were of the "wires in the slot" count or the "turns around the arm" count.

The image you just posted is from Turn Calculator 6. To use that turn calculator you have to enter the following details from a dLRK wind in the yellow boxes to generate the turn count predictions:

1 - turn count from a motor that has dLRK wind (not any other type of wind)

2 - the termination used on the motor (Delta or Star/Wye)

3 - The Kv that resulted from the above (either a measured Kv or as advertised in a spec will do)

That will give you the predictions for all the wind types and terminations listed across column headings and the turn counts will be based on the entries in the yellow boxes.

For the predicitons to be right, the entries in the yellow boxes must be from a dLRK wind for the result to be accurate.

I can run the spreadsheet and give you predictions but I am still a little uncertain that I know the correct (around the arm, not in slot) turn count, termination, and Kv from a dLRK wind.

Can you confirm that it is from a dLRK wind and tell me what the turn count, termination, and Kv are from one of the motors you now have in hand?

I'm a little worried that I'll give you a turn count table that is not valid for your motors and your Kv will not be right. That is why I am asking.

Jack
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:48 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Jack, the motor is a dLRK I believe, there were two teeth oppisite each other that were toasted, The epoxy was a mess and I had to cut the spagetti off the stator. Again, it back to scratch to configure a motor that can give me the maximum on a 6s pack. I would hope that someone with experience with speed and the torque requirements would chime in and simply tell me how many turns to wrap every other tooth for a LRK wind...12n10p 4035 and y termination. I have .81mm and 1.02mm mag wire.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:32 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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If it was dLRK, each phase would have a pair of arms that were side by side wound from one to the other, then a transit across to two more side by side arms wound in sequence.

Those four arms in a dLRK wind make one phase (I think the "distributed" in dLRK comes from the phase being distributed over four arms rather than the two arms in a LRK wind or the three arms of a ABC wind or something like that).

That darned croco Kombinationstabelle page with the table of winding schemes is still not back up. Does anyone have a saved off copy of that image?

The attached image might be the current version of the table from the croco page.

But if you look at the attached image and it is right your best choices are:

12N8P - ABCABCABCABC

12N10P - dLRK (AabBCcaABbcC) or LRK (A-b-C-a-B-c)

So obviously you have going to have to wind different winds for motors with 8 and 10 magnets. And if your goal is to have a motor like that beautiful image you posted in post #17 it looks like you want to do a 11 turn LRK wind. I have zoomed on that image, counted the turns, I see it as an 11 turn wind as per the attached image.

So does all that seem to be on track?

And if you can go to the place where you got that image and find the info on the Kv that resulted from it, I can run the turn calculator spreadsheet and gve you an image for it too.

Jack
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 06:56 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.za/articles.html
see part 3
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 07:44 PM
Jack
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Right, I can find several versions of the table and that is one of them. Look at the box for the 12N8P in the tablee I posted above. That says the ABCABCABC is good for speed (nur fur speed) and has it in blue (blue = good combination).

The one you just linked to shows it in red (red = it works, but not very well).

And I think 12N8P with a ABC wind is considered to be a good wind by the guys there on the croco/ditto pages isn't? We are a little bit handicapped here by the German language pages being down right now. And by the translation issues when they are not down too...

As far as a wind image for the motor, you can generate that here:

http://i.caendle.de/dev/test2/

Or if you tell me the wind and termination I'll do it and post it here.

Can you tell me a turn count and resulting Kv for that motor, that is still an unanswered question as far as getting that spreadsheet.

And have you narrowed it down on which wind you'll do? ABC for a 12N10P? Or LRK for 12N10P?

Jack
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 11:31 PM
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In my experience, 12n8P and 12n16p engines are noisy and vibrators.

Manuel V.
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Last edited by manuel v; Nov 17, 2012 at 12:57 AM.
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 09:17 PM
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12N10P and 12N14P, wound the same scheme, in LRK or dLRK. Spins opposite, but no biggie, just swap any of the two leads.

12N8P, wound ABC x4.

More magnet, higher torque at lower rpm, efficient also at lower rpm. Less magnet, less torque and less efficient at low rpm, but more efficient and has more power at higher rpm, were the one with more magnet loses efficiency. Considering both motor is of the same size.

I looked on your earlier post. You mentioned 8x13 and/or 10x13 props. I'll probably start working with the 8P motor, if I were you. They're more afficient at higher RPM. Your motor size, in my guesstimation, is pretty plenty for those props. I know you mentioned, efficiency is not primary, but efficiency is as much of a goal if you want to convert as much of your battery power into mechanical power to spin your prop.

As for the question of kv and number of turns, looks like you have a bunch of scorpions motors to play with. They're normally marked with the number of "turns"(columns of wire in the slot) and the kv rating. I normally multiply those two value and divide the product to a number of turns, higher or lower then the original. That gives me an approximate possible kv value, when I did that wound. It only gets me close, not exact, but very close to actual kv. But take into account, the "wye" and "delta terminate. The 1.732 reduction from wye to delta, and vice versa. Scorpions are normally delta terminate.

You may have to redo it a few times till you hit that target. Good luck....
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 12:59 AM
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For rewind Scorpion 4035-560 to around 1200 Kv,
You have only 2 options.

I think, the best option is 2 Group Parallel for 1120 Kv.

Manuel V.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 05:17 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Manuel, is this a 2 group parallel ? Also wht kind of wind is the other picture I took off the video (picture below)

Jack here's a vid I found again on winding a larger motor with big wire, its in German but you'll get the drift.
thanks guys
Tom
Brushless Motorwickeln am Turnigy 4030 T600 (1 hr 6 min 46 sec)
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Last edited by ApexAero; Nov 17, 2012 at 08:11 PM.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 06:22 PM
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This scheme is easy in delta.

Manuel V.
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Old Nov 17, 2012, 08:09 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
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Quote:
This scheme is easy in delta.
Wow! What kind of wind is it? How does that terminate?
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