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Old Jan 27, 2013, 10:48 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Another wire question with the cross section of wire compaired to the surface area. Do multipal strands have more or less surface area on the outside of the wire, not the circular area of a cross cut is what I'm trying to figure as I understand the electrons travel on the surface?
Next is, is there a dd or yy for a 12n8p? Where to find schematic?
Tom
inputing this formula ABCABC/ABCABC into http://i.caendle.de/dev/test2/
you get the half parallel winding for 12N8P. But i really do not think it is necessary to use YY for ABC's windings. A normal D will be much easier.

In my opinion, YY is favoured for 40XX's dLRK, is because it helps get to the desinated Kv (considering the wire size optimum for copper fill), while eliminating the D's problem for non-ABC windings.
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 04:10 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
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I still have some 1.68mm (14ga) wire and was thinking how to wind a powerfull EDF motor and keep the Kv about 700 to 750. I know I can get 4 turns per arm but think I need 5 turns each.
At the least I have 1.5 mm(14.5ga) and can do three wire ABC in 5+5. Also have 1.04 wire(18ga). This is the only reason I asked about a dd or yy. The motor is a 4035-800 12n8p
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 07:53 AM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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Would a 750 or so Kv be enough for a EDF? Or will it be geared up to get a higher impeller RPM? The EDF's have to have that annoying whine to fly well, don't they?

Jack
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 11:42 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
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Its for a Dynamax impeller, 25k is what it needs on 12s.
Using 3.5v x 12s = 42v x 750kv = 31500rpm - 20% for effieciency loss = 25200 rpm
I'm reduced to bakers paper!!!
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 08:04 PM
Jack
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And I'm not having any luck finding more of the Aramid paper either. I'm going to phone them tomorrow see if they have it, my email has been ignored so far.

So your impression of that paper was that it was good, right?

Jack
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Old Jan 28, 2013, 09:01 PM
Inspiration
modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
Joined Aug 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
I still have some 1.68mm (14ga) wire and was thinking how to wind a powerfull EDF motor and keep the Kv about 700 to 750. I know I can get 4 turns per arm but think I need 5 turns each.
At the least I have 1.5 mm(14.5ga) and can do three wire ABC in 5+5. Also have 1.04 wire(18ga). This is the only reason I asked about a dd or yy. The motor is a 4035-800 12n8p
i think for HK4035 12N8p, 8T delta = 800Kv. (THough scorpion stats their 800Kv is 6T delta, it is actually a 8T).

So for 700 - 750, for Y, T count will be 5.2 - 4.9T. Then for YY would be 10.4T - 9.8T. So 10T YY will probably give you the Kv you need. Or you can simply do a 8T delta.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 11:04 AM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
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So how does a ABCABCABCABC 12n8p yy terminate? (Just for education and training)
Modsic, I'm leaning toward the stsd winding for this motor especially if I go with th 1.68mm
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 01:51 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
Joined May 2008
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modisc,

Let me tag a question on to Tom's question please. Is the attached image that of a 14N8P winding that can be terminated as YY? And could it also be terminated DD?

If the answer is yes can you use the arm numbers (1 thru 12) and tell me the numbers that would be joined to terminate that winding for YY?

And also what numbers would be joined for a DD termination?

Jack
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:17 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Jack, how did you figure to use the slash? Gee wiz,, the other thing is I can't get that page to work in IE8 anymore but it works in chrome.
EDIT: (I see it in the fine print now)

this is from one of Modisc's earlier posts
Quote:
if you mean connections, it is possible to connect the coils as Y/D, YY/DD, YYYY/DDDD.

you can view each coil on the tooth as a single coil. So there are 12 coils all together on the stator. A, B or C has 4 coils each. for Y termination, all the 4 coils are connected in series. For YY terminations, 2 of the 4 coils are connected in parallel, and the 2 parallel coils are then connected in series. For YYYY, all 4 coils in a group (A, B, or C) are connected in parallel.

This is why I recommand single-tooth-single-direction winding technique.

Each Group of coils, will have eventually 2 ends. For 12N8P YY, for example, Group A contains coil_1, 4, 7, 10. So the connection will be: 1_end-4_end-7_start-10_start, while the 2 ends for this GroupA is 1_start-4_start, and 7_end-10_end.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:29 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
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Originally Posted by ApexAero View Post
Jack, how did you figure to use the slash? Gee wiz,, the other thing is I can't get that page to work in IE8 anymore but it works in chrome.
I think I remembered that from the croco/ditto calculator. And I've seen modisc or someone use it also. One of the "true winding genius" guys...

I have a small library of wind images that is my "bible", I'd like to add the notes to that image for the YY and DD terminations. I am never going to have this stuff memorized, I have to have an image to ape in order to do a wind. It does not embarrass me to be that way and I get things that work more often...

Jack
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:44 PM
Jack
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"..the other thing is I can't get that page to work in IE8 anymore but it works in chrome..."

I have not used IE in any version for about 10 years except for updates (no choice there). I detest M$ on their hostile and selfish approach as to our needs to use M$ apps. I am using Firefox for a browser and Thunderbird for email and like those very much. I got to those from Netscape, there are some other choices now for Mozilla.org apps too.

I tried chrome and could see no great advantage to using it so I just use firefox for exerything browser wise.

On the "test2" win image calculator page, from firefox I have that page saved off to my hard drive as "webpage complete" (File > Save Page As > choose type Web page, complete > Save).

I saved it to a folder where I keep my RC stuff and I can use that to run the test2 calculator from my hard drive if offline and will still have a useable copy of it if test2 goes away for any reason.

Got some good news on the Aramid paper, it will be back soon. I'll fill you in on the details on that later.

Jack
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 02:49 PM
Aka: Tom Jenkins
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Palm Beach County, Fl.
Joined Aug 2008
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Also for me it helped to do my own drawing. I put it as a screen saver for reference while winding. I'd like to see a terminated schematic in yy, following the wire isn't working for me on this one yet. Even though it may or not get used.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 05:42 PM
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modisc's Avatar
United States, MI, Ann Arbor
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Originally Posted by jackerbes View Post
modisc,

Let me tag a question on to Tom's question please. Is the attached image that of a 14N8P winding that can be terminated as YY? And could it also be terminated DD?

If the answer is yes can you use the arm numbers (1 thru 12) and tell me the numbers that would be joined to terminate that winding for YY?

And also what numbers would be joined for a DD termination?

Jack
For 12N8P's half parallel windings:
You view tooth_1 to tooth_6 as one 6-tooth 3-phase motor, and tooth_7 to tooth_12 as another 6-tooth 3-phase motor.
So for the 1st motor, the 6 wire end to be connected as Y or D is tooth1in and tooth4out for wire_A, tooth2in and tooth5out for wire_B, tooth3in and tooth6out for wire_C.
For the 2nd motor, the 6 wire end to be connected as Y or D is tooth7in and tooth10out for wire_A', tooth8in and tooth11out for wire_B', tooth9in and tooth12out for wire_C'.

For the 1st motor, Y would be: tooth1in-tooth2in-tooth3in as Y-bundle; tooth4out, tooth5out and tooth6out for ESC.
For the 2nd motor, Y would be tooth7in-tooth8in-tooth9in as Y-bundle; tooth10out, tooth11out and tooth12out for ESC.

As tooth1, 4, 7, 10 are for phase_A (including wire_A and wire_A'), and etc, So combining the two motors, a YY will be: two separete Y bundle as before, or a single Y bundle containing the above 6 wires; tooth7out-tooth10out, tooth8out-tooth11out, tooth9out-tooth12out for ESC.

DD would be: Phase_A's in +Phase_B's out, Phase_B's in + Phase-C's out, Phase_C's in + Phase_A's out:
which is actually: tooth1in-tooth7in-tooth5out-tooth11out, tooth2in-tooth8in-tooth6out-tooth12out, tooth3in-tooth9in-tooth4out-tooth10out.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 05:58 PM
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MagnusEl's Avatar
Sweden, Gävleborg County
Joined Jan 2004
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I think this is right.

For the DD the paralellwiring is not included,
but Start A/End B, the red/blue should be together with 2:nd "motor half" Start A/End B.
Start B/ End C, to Start B/ End C and finaly,
Start C/ End A, to Start C/ End A.
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Old Jan 29, 2013, 06:37 PM
Jack
USA, ME, Ellsworth
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@ modisc and MagnusEl,

Thanks very much guys, tomorrow I'm going to go print the schemes and your helpful answers and start doodling to see if I can figure all of this out. I think I'm smart enough...

Jack
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