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Old Oct 20, 2012, 10:13 PM
222 km/hr Parkjet flyer
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Latvia, Ventspils pilsēta, Ventspils
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Originally Posted by Azarr View Post
I normally stay out of this type of thread, however....

I get the support the LHS sentiment. But let's say instead of buying a $50 item from a mail order company in a different state, I buy the same item direct from overseas for $10. In both cases the overseas company gets my $10. Yet if I buy direct from overseas, I now have $40 to spend at my local farmer's market, pizza place, movie theater. Now my $40 really stays local. If I have an excess of funds and don't need it for day to day expenses I can invest my $40 and still it remains domestic.

Azarr
I totally agree ....

I know that every $ I save gets spent on other items locally. It's no good priopping up one biz if rest are failing around it.
People used to argue with me about my paying less tax because I am an expat. But I spent more in the shops and businesses ... and in so doing benefited more directly local interests instead of lining a Govt Coffer ... when actually totalled up - I spent a lot more than they did locally.

Nigel
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 10:31 PM
Promoting Model Aviation...
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United States, CA, Tehachapi
Joined Nov 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azarr View Post
So in this case you opted for convenience and dollar savings over supporting your LHS?



I've bought a bunch from the Hobby King USA and I doubt I'm alone.

As far as my $50 comment, the Phoenix 10 ESC which is "assembled" not made in the US is a good example. Retail is $59.95 with MAP pricing ~ $50 while the rebadged Hobbywing 10 ESC which has a better linear response is ~ $10 shipped. That leaves me $40 to spend in my truly local economy. I doubt too many economists would consider sending money out of state as buying "local"

Azarr
As I mentioned, buying within our borders is still supporting and helping out the American economy. I don't understand why there is an argument about trying to help out when and where we can.


Frank
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 11:19 PM
222 km/hr Parkjet flyer
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
As I mentioned, buying within our borders is still supporting and helping out the American economy. I don't understand why there is an argument about trying to help out when and where we can.


Frank
I don't think there's any argument about helping out ... what I think is that some peoples idea of helping out may be a bit more flexible and others less so.

I also have to say that as an outsider ... I find the thread interesting in illustrating some peoples narrow views.... not meaning any disrespect.

Nigel
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 11:29 PM
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
I don't think there's any argument about helping out ... what I think is that some peoples idea of helping out may be a bit more flexible and others less so.

I also have to say that as an outsider ... I find the thread interesting in illustrating some peoples narrow views.... not meaning any disrespect.

Nigel
Things might have not been so bad for you over on your side of the pond, but here in the USA, unemployment is through the roof. My brother was out of work for over a year, my mother-in-law, my sister, all out of work due to the economy.

My family and my wife's family have suffered a lot during these past few years and it saddens me when we have the oppotunity to help, even if it is just a little bit, and some don't or simply refuse to. I think we all are able to help our fellow American out and should take the opportunity to do so when we can. Even if that help is as little as support for one another or shopping locally within our borders. If that is being narrowed minded because I care than so be it.

I'm glad you guys over there do not have the same problems we do and I am sorry to see that you do not have the RCDudes, Value Hobby, HeadsUP RC and other like we do here.

Frank
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 12:14 AM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
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Originally Posted by matiac View Post
I am an active member of the N.R.A., A.M.A., contribute to the wounded warrior project at www.woundedwarriorproject.org (DAMNED internet again) every year, .
Me too, actually... but it doesn't give me a discount on Chinese goods at my LHS, only rental cars
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 02:04 AM
Ego varius quis.
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Wisconsin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post

Shopping "locally" has a multiplier effect. One dollar spent at locally owned business returns FIVE TIMES that amount within the community through city taxes, employee's wages and purchase of materials and supplies at other independent businesses.
It's not nearly that simple, I'm afraid. The large majority of the value added is still foreign, and very little of the money ends up in infrastructure improvements where it's so badly needed.

Buying a $10 kit instead of a $90 kit allows me $80 to buy some American-made shoes from my local shoestore instead of some Chinese rubbish from Amazon. I think I've made the better decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Obake View Post
The greedy American businessman did this to themselves. Moved manufacturing and support jobs overseas all in the name of being compeitive. They blamed unions, wages, politics, etc for this need to be competitive. As they moved more production overseas they created an environment where they needed to move even more production overseas in order to continue to stay competitive with themselves and others.
And without the use of foreign intermediary goods, all of our exports would become equally uncompetitive. There's an awful lot of things we can't produce locally - fertilizer ingredients notably one of them - and a refusal to play ball would screw us even worse in the long run.

Nations with heavy import tarriffs are frequently FUBAR.
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Originally Posted by elfwreck View Post
Hey now,
I'm kind of poor so when I buy gear I need it to last and hold up well. I find only the higher end stuff does that and I get good prices on that kind of gear from both Victor and Perry. Why would I go anywhere else?
Define "High end gear." Unless you're buying the very ultimate of high end - Hacker, YGE, some of the made-in-Japan Kyosho/JR/whatever stuff - it's frequently just Chinese innards with an American brand stamped on it.

The only American cell producer I know of in this size category is A123. And, last I heard, they just went bust.

Quote:
Originally Posted by slipstick View Post
Sorry but if the country I'm living in chooses not charge taxes on goods I import then that's not my fault and I take offence at you accusing me of being a criminal
Actually, last I checked, international purchases are just like interstate purchases in that you're supposed to add local sales tax yourself and pay it to the government. Strictly speaking, we probably ARE criminals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dereck View Post
Another future advantage of a LHS - one day, you'll be able to go visit, try the latest 'product' as a virtual simulation. If you like the product, wave your plastic and Poof! - the real thing will be in your hands.
As someone who has been up to his elbows lately in 3D printers, I can say this:

No.

3D printing is a niche technology, and you'll never be able to print anything as strong or light as a good old-fashioned nylon prop.
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 02:55 AM
Whereditgo???
Glastonbury UK
Joined Apr 2007
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If you have a good LHS – be grateful! Not all of us have. I have two ‘Locals’ here in the UK – the closest is a 20 mile round trip away. The other is about 30. Neither has a buying web presence.

I needed some building materials so I decided to go to the 30 mile one as they generally had better stock of that sort of goods. They are in the middle of a town I don’t go to often and difficult to get to and with dodgy parking. I checked the website to get the postcode for the satnav and set off. Imagine my joy when I got there to find a note on the door to say they were not opening that day but they would be there the next day, “so sorry” No indication on the website they were not opening, and by the sign on the door they knew for at least a week.

I did what I should have done in the first place - I ordered the stuff I needed over the web. Guess where I won’t be going back to.

I do buy UK if I can but I also buy HK. HK local warehouse if I can because it is faster and also local, but not everything is stocked.

Cost is a big factor as is stock. If you are buying mail order then postage or freight is a factor and the more you can get from one place the better the deal. Also, if I buy UK I can usually get it within a day or two. HK takes 10 days but is usually a lot cheaper, sometimes also for the postage – go figure!

What has happened is the internet. BI (Before Internet) One had to buy locally or wait ages for mail order done by snail mail. Now competition is only one click away. If the LHS wishes to survive it HAS to also do internet orders. It HAS to also carry a better stock, maybe specialise in a certain field, but carry everything for that field. That way you have the best of both worlds, people can come in and prod at stuff and chat, and also order on line once they decide.

As a standalone, local, walk in orders only, you have no hope of survival. BI maybe, but now? No chance! No matter how good you are. Life has moved on and become global – adapt or die.

Dave
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 03:18 AM
222 km/hr Parkjet flyer
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Latvia, Ventspils pilsēta, Ventspils
Joined Jan 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
Things might have not been so bad for you over on your side of the pond, but here in the USA, unemployment is through the roof. My brother was out of work for over a year, my mother-in-law, my sister, all out of work due to the economy.

My family and my wife's family have suffered a lot during these past few years and it saddens me when we have the oppotunity to help, even if it is just a little bit, and some don't or simply refuse to. I think we all are able to help our fellow American out and should take the opportunity to do so when we can. Even if that help is as little as support for one another or shopping locally within our borders. If that is being narrowed minded because I care than so be it.

I'm glad you guys over there do not have the same problems we do and I am sorry to see that you do not have the RCDudes, Value Hobby, HeadsUP RC and other like we do here.

Frank
Forguve me but USA is not alone in this ... UK, many other developed countries have suffered same ... maybe just earlier than USA and have found alternative to carry on.
I live in Latvia and that took a serious near bankrupt hit along with Ireland, Iceland and others when Credit Crunch hit. The effect on latvia was devastating ... in fact in terms of % - far worse than anything USA has seen in these recent years.
Imagine also that it is only a few years after the support and structure of Soviet Union has fallen and Latvia is on it's own. Oil pipelines shut of, gas for cities tripling in price overnight, factories markets vanishing with Russian retreat .... nothing but Forest Products and a few Oil Traders managing to feed stock into half empty oil terminals ... ports half empty ... even if people kept a job - the salary was cut in half ... taxes increased ...

I am lucky that I work in an industry that calls for people like me ... not many young'uns to fill in when likes of me are gone. It meant that I could help not only the Inspectors, lab techs working for me by propping up the lack of work while they sorted themselves out ... but paying out and helping with medical bills ... debts etc. of family and friends. So please I am not in such as you think.

I will now repeat items that were told to me by Americans when I've worked in USA ...

In USA - national news is in the state. International news is over the state line. True international news is when an American is involved.

I was told was lucky to be Brit as I had international flavour education and history, after that I started to notice the lack of international knowledge of people I met. In UK it can be bad ... but USA as soon as I moved away from Coast ...

I have worked in many areas such as Saudi Arabia where US workers would only live in walled camps bringing USA with them ... which upsets locals.
We on the other hand lived amongst the local people and received respect for that.

Now before anyone thinks I am anti American - I can assure I am not. During my time in Saudi - I was involved not only in Desert Shield but Storm and operations after. Imagine being chased down the deck of a ship by an M1 tank ... all 60 tons of it !
Recently I was involved in Nato ... which obviously I am not at liberty to expand upon either.

Like many things and you can look across the spectrum of this forum for example and you will note a US bias. Not only because the majority of members are USA ... but also because of the insular nature of American Society.

Again I say i am not anti-American.

Lets get onto manufacturing and materials ... USA was always an industrial giant, WW2 is a perfect example of the industrial might feeding the war machines to take the fight to Hitler and Japs. (I do not forget the human tragedy as well - but here we are talking industry).
But look at history and reality. Majority of USA industry / items were based not on American design or invention - but on immigrants who had knowledge but no means to develop ... USA had the money and drive to accomplish development.

Unfortunately the world does not stop turning .....

It used to be European powers such as UK that had the Industrial might of the world in their hands ... Then USA ... now it's moved on .... sad but true and nothing can be done about it. It's accept it or get out of the way ...

Is it no wonder that the humble Local Hobby Shop is fast dissappearing ? same as happened in UK and other places ?

It may seem over dramatic to post the above considering we are only talking about Model Shops ... but as I see it, its indicative of the general situation whatever product or market you are looking at. Appreciation of the Global situation is an important part of our lives now. This is where the Anti-Globalisation movements fall down ... you cannot fight evolution. It rolls on under it's own steam literally.

WOW !! from model airplanes to World Economics !!

Of course I could be wrong !!

Please take all above as debate and all meant in good spirit.

nigel
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 05:13 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
I am still surprised by the number of people that seem to feel the need to send their money directly to another country outside of the USA. In today's economy, America is struggling and it seems to me that we all would want to do our best to help. Sending monies to a foriegn country just does not seem to make much sense to me. And it is not like we don't have any RC shops locally to us. And when I say "locally" I mean shops and businesses in the USA.

If you don't have any LHS or you don't like your LHS them check out my blog. There you will find over 350 different places to shop from that will help support our economy and you will find vendors that cannot be beat on quality AND customer service.

I saw this interesting fact on shopping locally:

Shopping "locally" has a multiplier effect. One dollar spent at locally owned business returns FIVE TIMES that amount within the community through city taxes, employee's wages and purchase of materials and supplies at other independent businesses.

So why not buy locally? Can't think of any reason not to.


[COLOR="Blue"]I guess another way to ask my question: Why should I buy my RC goods from a foriegn country? [/COLOR]

Just a thought.

Frank
Because, ultimately, that is where the vast majority of those RC Goods come from. There is very little that one can do about that, unless one seeks out manufacturers who make all of their gear in country, of which there is a small minority. It's a global market and even those local outfits are mostly sourcing the RC goods that they sell on from the Far East.

FWIW something like 80%+ of my RC goods have been bought from my LHS, which is just three miles away, so within walking distance or a five minute drive. Sadly I'm relocating to somewhere where the nearest decent LHS will be about 3 hours drive away. My LHS does have an excellent mail order operation though.
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 05:16 AM
All under control, Grommit!
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azarr View Post
I normally stay out of this type of thread, however....

I get the support the LHS sentiment. But let's say instead of buying a $50 item from a mail order company in a different state, I buy the same item direct from overseas for $10. In both cases the overseas company gets my $10. Yet if I buy direct from overseas, I now have $40 to spend at my local farmer's market, pizza place, movie theater. Now my $40 really stays local. If I have an excess of funds and don't need it for day to day expenses I can invest my $40 and still it remains domestic.

Azarr
Good post Azarr
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 09:22 AM
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United States, CA, Tehachapi
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
Forguve me but USA is not alone in this ... UK, many other developed countries have suffered same ... maybe just earlier than USA and have found alternative to carry on.

Please take all above as debate and all meant in good spirit.

nigel
Long post. Thanks for sharing that. I'll just say that I'm sorry to hear that you have suffered as well.

I am glad that we have such places like Altitude Hobbies, RCDudes, Value Hobby, HeadsUP RC and let's not forget Mountain Models and Stevens Aero and other great kit makers here in the US to shop. It seems we are very fortunate to have great businesses like that here in the US that we can turn to so we can shop domestically. We are very fortunate in that regard and I am happy to support those companies that can sell me a quality product at a great price with excellent customer service.

Like I mentioned above, I ordered those power supply splitters on Thursday from ProgressiveRC and received them on Saturday. That was a product that I could not find anywhere else on the internet. Yup, we are pretty darn lucky to have the places we to shop at so don't have to send our monies overseas. As you pointed out, not everyone is as lucky.

Thanks again for the informative post.

Frank
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 10:23 AM
Ego varius quis.
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Wisconsin
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Originally Posted by solentlife View Post
But look at history and reality. Majority of USA industry / items were based not on American design or invention - but on immigrants who had knowledge but no means to develop ... USA had the money and drive to accomplish development.
Aside from, y'know, Intel, Ford, Apple, and the other umpteen companies founded by second through tenth generation Americans. Design and invention is these days our most important export.
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 10:33 AM
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[QUOTE=Murocflyer;23059999
I am glad that we have such places like Altitude Hobbies, RCDudes, Value Hobby, HeadsUP RC and let's not forget Mountain Models and Stevens Aero and other great kit makers here in the US to shop.[/QUOTE]

Most of these shops are primarily reselling Hobbyking stuff. Why should I give them money for a worthless service when I can give it to people in my community who actually do something of value?

As for the kits, balsa is a niche market. $60 for a Stephens AeroModel kit is quite an expenditure - I'm looking at maybe $75 for an empty airframe after glue, covering, and accessories - pretty spendy given that Parkzone will sell me an RTF with full kit for $100.
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 11:01 AM
222 km/hr Parkjet flyer
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Originally Posted by Cheesehead View Post
Aside from, y'know, Intel, Ford, Apple, and the other umpteen companies founded by second through tenth generation Americans. Design and invention is these days our most important export.
I'm glad you typed the words ' generation ' .....

We wont go into the realm of rocketry ... military ..... and lots of other arenas ....

Anyway all I was doing was trying to get some to look at a wider picture.

Nigel
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Old Oct 21, 2012, 11:45 AM
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United States, ID, Burley
Joined Mar 2012
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Originally Posted by Murocflyer View Post
I am still surprised by the number of people that seem to feel the need to send their money directly to another country outside of the USA. In today's economy, America is struggling and it seems to me that we all would want to do our best to help. Sending monies to a foriegn country just does not seem to make much sense to me. And it is not like we don't have any RC shops locally to us. And when I say "locally" I mean shops and businesses in the USA.

If you don't have any LHS or you don't like your LHS them check out my blog. There you will find over 350 different places to shop from that will help support our economy and you will find vendors that cannot be beat on quality AND customer service.

I saw this interesting fact on shopping locally:

Shopping "locally" has a multiplier effect. One dollar spent at locally owned business returns FIVE TIMES that amount within the community through city taxes, employee's wages and purchase of materials and supplies at other independent businesses.

So why not buy locally? Can't think of any reason not to.


I guess another way to ask my question: Why should I buy my RC goods from a foriegn country?

Just a thought.

Frank
and does not everything the LHS sells come from China ? Just comes with a higher price which pays for the LHS support you get. Im all for supporting the local LHS,if there was one here But im not going to drive three hours at $4 a gallon gas, pay way more for the same plane i could get from online even with shipping. It is a great idea for beginners though.
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