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Old Nov 10, 2012, 02:40 PM
Veni, Vidi, Napi
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Cumming, GA
Joined Sep 2004
468 Posts
Gosh Edweird!

All you need now is a Mattel Vac-U-Form to go with your Kenner Easy-Bake Wing Bake oven. Then you can make cowls!

I would have gone with the longer span and smaller chord. Just to keep all the moments in the same place.

But then, I'm an idiot so who cares what I think.

UT
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 09:37 PM
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Alas Catscratcher,

I only had 10" wide material, so I couldn't get there from here -- or from somewhere else either!
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 01:23 PM
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K.F. Wing

As promised earlier, here is contruction info on Kline-Fogleman wing, 50% chord and approx 12 percent thickness.

I started by laying out 2 pieces of 1mm Depron, 12" wide and 6-3/4" wide, with the strength or grain of the foam running the long way or span-wise.

Then, I marked a line 2-1/4" from the front edge, all the way across, and indented the line with a ball-point pen. (Make sure to mark this line on the DULL side of the Depron.)

This line will become the final leading edge, but for now, I glued the wing spars --strips of 3mm Depron, 12" x 7/16" wide -- to the actual current leading edge as shown in the photos, and allowed to everything to dry.

At this point, I didn't like the sort of wedge shape that the front of the wing was taking, so I cut 4 half-ribs of 3mm depron, and glued them near the end of both wing pieces, and under the area where the rubber band would later hold down the wing. This gave a better airfoil shape, and a little reinforcement to the wing as well. Then, I folded over at the scored line, and glued the bottom of the spar strips to the wing, forming the K.F. airfoil. (See photo #3 for end view).

Then, as with the original wing, I used a piece of the smallest trailing edge stock I could find, and glued the two wing pieces to that, forming the dihedral of the wing. At this point, I had a quandry. I couldn't find any research to indicate how much, or if any, dihedral was desired on a K.F. wing. I used 3/4" under each wing tip, and glued it up with foam-safe CA. When dry, I added some foam braces, air-foil shaped at the center to help keep the hold-down rubber band from crushing the wing (see photo #4), then I wrapped the whole center join area with packing tape for a little extra re-inforcement.

I only had a brief period to test fly this wing so far, and that day was sort of windy.
With this wing the plane seemed prone to zoom a little, and be very hard to respond to the rudder at times. This could have been due to C.G. problems, not enough rudder, or simply not enough air speed.

I wil test this wing more thoroughly when I have finalized the power setup.

Meanwhile, anyhone who can offer feedback for pros and cons of dihedral on a trainer type aircraft with K.F. wing, I would be most greatful!

Other than that, this wing weighed in at 12 grams, the second one with the wider chord described in an earlier post weight 10 grams, and the original wing
in the first post weighed in at a hefty 23 grams!

And, last for now, let me remind all readers that this plane has to paint, covering, or other markings for now, as it is a research work in progress. In fact, were I to paint it now, it would of course have to be painted with a 1 micron thin layer of secret ceramic prduct to reduce the effect of the substantial speed-related heat I expect to produce on this aircraft in the near future!

I also predict the Falcons will go undefeated...
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:43 PM
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1S Brushless Motor Set Up.

BACKGROUND

As promised earlier, it's time to install the brushless motor system. I decided to install a brushless system, because when I built the original concept model, it was a little heavy at 60 grams AUW, and with the Parkzone UMX P-51 brushed motor, kind of marginally powered. Of course I recognized that I could save weight all over the place on the original design, but I wanted to also do the research and compare actual flight performance on 1S and 2S systems. This would pretty much tell me where to start on my next model, and save a lot of time down the road.

It was only after the parts were backordered from HK that I decided to experiment with other wings as discussed previously, but also to determine what effect weight savings would have. The design of the Micro-Tee (thanks to the original creator of the "Q-Tee", Lee Renaud, who inspired me!), lends itself to easily swapping wings and motors.

In fact, you will note (if you have read all this thread to date) that I have used the same airframe body throughout, so that the introduction of new fuselages, etc. would not effect the testing. It's little rashed up, but flies like the cutie it is.

Originally, I had just about settled on an AP05 3000kv motor and an XP-3A esc, but after further reading, I found that the AP05 5000kv would allow an easier migration from 1S to 2S, if used with an XP-7A esc. All that I would have to do is add a diode to the red wire headed to the RX -- and be sure NOT to used that existing battery connection on the RX, which might not handle the 2S battery throughput.

This is what I ended up using:

AP05 5000kv b/l outrunner motor: http://www.overskyrc.com/index.php?m...624368f4c995e6

XP-7A ESC: http://www.overskyrc.com/index.php?m...roducts_id=103

AR6400 Rx. (Look-alikes would be okay here, also.

THE WORK

I began by carfully trimming off the brushed motor mount along with the P-51 motor. I also used a #11 Xacto blade and knife to cut through the UHU por glue holding the top of the currently-empty esc compartment.

I then glued into place a 1/16 ply firewall for the b/l motor with holes cut out to pass the wires through and holes drilled to fit the AP05's built-in motor mount.
I drilled so that two of the mounting holes aligned vertically on the port side if the firewall, so that it would be asier to add shims to add right or down thrust later, if needed. (See photos 1& 2). The mount is installed 0 - 0 to start.

Photo #3 shows the components for the 1S setup. The AP05 5000kv motor has had connectors added that are the same as the E-Flite 180BL motors that I'm using elsewhere, donated from vesion 1 Beasts. I wanted to maintain ease of switching for now. Obviously, weight could be saved here, etc., etc.

Next, is the XP-7A Esc with compatible motor connector, 1S brushless connector added to battery wires and 2mm pitch connector for the red & black leads to the rx. The white (signal) wire for the brushless outrunner, is just a peice of old resistor lead the right diameter soldered to the end of the wire. Photo #4 show these ends a little more clearly. Note that the red arrow in photo #3 points to the unused original battry lead on the RX. Again weight, etc., etc., but I did not want to modify the rx or its wires at this time.

Also shown is the home-wired 1S 240 mah Hyperion battery. Ithink it's a 25C.

Photo #5 shows the b/l motor installed. Note that the wires to the rx are also installed, prior to fastening down the esc. I used #0 x 3/16" phillip headed screws from MicroFasteners.com to mount the motor and about 1/16" thick servo mounting tape to hold down the esc.

Photo #6 shows everything stuffed in and hooked up, awaiting only the re-glueing of the esc compartment hatch cover. Since the AP05 5000kv motor and the XP-7A with work with either 1S or 2S batteries, I can simply make a 1S to 2S adapter wire for the battery, and solder a diode into the red wire going to the rx, and presto!, I'm running 2S!

Photo #7 shows everything back together and ready to fly, with the original wing,
AUW now 65 grams.

Photo #8 shows the open-at-the-bottom battery compartment and the 1S 240mah battery installed w/velcro.

FLYING

Wow! This little motor pulls like crazy, even at part throttle, using a GWS 5030 prop. I started off with this heavier wing because: 1) I knew it would fly well, and 2) it was a windy day.

A touch of right rudder was all she needed. But, she flew beautifully. I don't even think I would want or need 2S, but I will eventually do the tests. I may even try my E-Flite 180BL 2200 or 2300kv and compare. I can't imagine why HK is not yet carrying the 5000kv AP05 already, but they are missing a sure bet.

I'm not gonna go to all the trouble to solder up leads and throw a watt meter on it, but I think you can take the maker's word for it when he says this little 5000kv motor will output 90 grams of thrust on 1S. It's close enough for me!

After I can find some better weather, I'll try to get to the larger flying field and see what else the brushless conversion will do.

In closing, let me mention that I had a little problem getting the rx and the XP7A to play nice together. Here are my recommendations:

As mentioned elsewhere in the groups, start with a clean channel on your tx to program the rx and esc. That is, no reversed controls, mixes, etc.

Then follow the TX/RX manufacturer's instruction for just binding the AR6400 to the Tx. Then, with the esc still NOT attached, set up the RX to allow the brushless esc to be recognized. I use a Spektrum DX6i and that's all I can talk about. If you use other gear, seek out a guru.

When that's all done, hook up the XP7A and the b/l motor and set the throttle range on the XP7A. I recommend that you set the throttle trims almost all the way to the bottom before doing this throttle range setting. I didn't, and it caused a lot of problems, in that I would only get 1/2 the throttle, or the systyem wouldn't remember the throttle range next startup.

Good luck and good flying. Questions cheerfully responded to, eventually.
See you next update.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 11:39 AM
Veni, Vidi, Napi
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Cumming, GA
Joined Sep 2004
468 Posts
Oh Edweird,

Did you get to measure duration? With the 1S 240 battery how much run time were you getting? Wonder how long it'd go with one of the 160 batteries. Course, balance might be an issue then. Didja have to add any snout weight with the 240?

UT - who's dutifully following along.
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:55 PM
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Tomster,

With the 1S 240 mah batt was originally getting around 6 minutes or so with the P-51 motor. There the problem was, that as the voltage dropped, the rpm dropped and the marginal power which was just flying the plane, so that unless the wind was dead zero, there wasn't enough gas for the downwind turn -- which shortened the flight. Dead still calm days you could get around 8 minutes.

With the 240 balance was just about right at the spar, or you could move the battery back around 1/4" or so to get the c.g. back some.

My old 160 batts would fly it, but not as long, maybe 3 - 4 minutes. Also, with the 160's, I had to poke a hole in the firewall, and install the them under the P-51 foam motor mount tray, to get the plane to balance. I think the whole issue is rather the "C" rating. The old E-Flite batts were C10 and the Hyperions are 25C. I have some hotter 160mah batts coming from HK, via the proverbial "slow boat from China"!
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 01:59 PM
Veni, Vidi, Napi
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Cumming, GA
Joined Sep 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheRealMrEd View Post
move the battery back around 1/4" or so to get the c.g. back some.
Careful 'mit 'dat. Remember our famed flat spins. Never could get the damn thing out of those.

Tomosorus
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Old Nov 15, 2012, 02:10 PM
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Wing swapping & motor dropping

I had a chance to fly each wing through most of a battery today. Unfortunately, the wind were 1 - 3 mph with gusts probably 4-6 mph. However I am happy to report that the original, heavier wing flew great in this weather (AUW 65 grams!),with good penetration, climb, loops etc. Undoubtedly, the heavier aircraft helped.

The newest wing, the one with the shorter span and wider chord flew well, with the ability to high-alpha, and to maneuver really well -- not as good wind penetration, due to higher drag, I think.

The K.F. wing flew OK, but still didn't want to turn at times. Either the dihedral in the K.F. is making the plane too stable to turn properly, or I need more rudder area or throw. So far, this is my least favorite wing -- at least for this particular aircraft.

Lastly, I experienced LVC on the last two wings mentioned, but not on the original wing. I hypothesize that this is due to increased drag due to the K.F. wing, and due to the wider chord of the other wing, respectively.

I think that the sweet spot on this aircraft would be a lighter original style wing,
in conjunction with the 1S AP05 5000kv motor. More research results will follow.
Another good solution would be to scale in down around 10% and use the AP05 3000kv and the XP3A esc.

Later...
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 03:03 PM
IFOs & Zagis - love 'em!!
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Bothell (Seattle), WA USA
Joined Nov 1999
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I'm glad to have stumbled across this thread. Though the original Q-Tee wasn't my first model, it was my second one, powered by a Cox Black Widow .049 with a Tee-Dee .051 piston an sleeve. Though the fuselage is long gone, I still have the original wing, as well as the 2/3 size balsa proptotype that I started, but never finished. This (along with the latest micro gear) is the inspriation to rekindle the project.

The original Q-Tee that I built used two Futaba S33 micro servos - only .6oz each, the lightest available at that time. The hobby has come along way.

Thanks for posting and please keep us updated on your progress.

Oh, and I have limited access to a laser capabe of cutting darker depron and EPP (which I have several thicknesses of). Do you happen to have a DXF or other CAD file of the plans that you might be willing to share?
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Old Nov 21, 2012, 06:37 PM
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Sloflyer, PM headed your way.
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Old Nov 27, 2012, 09:04 PM
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2S Power, a new wing and a revised plane body.

As promised, here is the comparison between 1S and 2S power.

While thinking about this, I had a few hours over the Thanksgiving Holiday and decided to make a simpler, and even lighter, wing. To do this I used two pieces of 2mm Depron 4.5 inched by 11". Even though the depron had the strength running the short way, baking it in the oven stiffened it up span wise, and so I needed no spars at all. I sanded the two curved pieces to fit together at the correct angle, and then glued them together with foam safe CA. I then added 5 ribs made of 1/4" think Styrofoam, glued them together and then to the underside of the center of the wing. These give the wing hold-down rubber band someimg solid to push against. I also reinforced the top of the wing at the center, with a strip of packing tape. New wing weight 10 grams..

At this point, I decided to put together a newer aircraft body and tail, just to get it as light as possible with a few simple modifications.

The plane is built the same as the original, but uses a smaller size of C.F. for the cabane struts, and horizontal struts upon which the wing rests, They were made a little longer so that there was no need to make the rear cut-out in the wing, and the resultant needed reinforcement was also not needed. Simpler and cleaner -- if one has access to an oven to bake the wings, and a jig to do it with. I made mine from plans found on line, and would be happy to add links if anyone can't find their own.. Making the jigs simple if you can gain access to a table saw and a jigsaw -- or better yet, a band saw.

In any event 2mm Depron was used for the tail feathers, vs. the original 3mm, and foam safe CA was used throughout.

The original plans have been edited and new patterns added (Post #1).

I selected the AP05 3000kv (currently again available from HK) for the motor
and for the esc, I used the DP-3A, also from HK. I added the 1/16 ply motor mount with a 2-3 degree right and the same amount of down angle for thrust.
My plane flew with no transmitter adjustments needed. CG should be set to 20 - 30% back from the wing's leading edge.

This version weighed in at 47 grams with a GWS 5030 prop and a 1S 240 mah Hyperion battery. Flying with this setup was okay; better than the original UMX p-51 geared motor, but still without much reserve power.

I then changed to a HK 6A ubec for the 2S test. I modified all the wires and took off the protective heat shrink to save weight (4 gram to 2 grams). I then added the diode mod to reduce current to the AR6400 as discussed elsewhere.

This 2S version, with an E-flite 180mah 2S battery weighed in at 52 gram AUW,
a flew perfectly. You could throttle it way down and slow, or really climb out steeply if you needed to do so. I recommend the 2S version of the AP05 3000kv, at least at these weights.

In conclusion, here is what I think I now believe:

At about 45 grams AUW the UMX P-51 motor just barely flies well enough -- in calm air. No extra power, and you've gotta fly it on the wing.

Same can be said for the AP05 3000kv motor on 1S. It's better, but not great.

I would say that at around 30 grams, either of these would be fine, but I'd lean toward the outrunner brushless, for less weae and no gear train fuss.

At 52 - 60 grams the AP05 3000kv on 2S will do all you would want on this parasol wing design; slow flight around the yard or indoors and some extra "oof" for maneuvers and wind.

For me at least, the Best of Show has got to be the AP05 5000kv, which on 1S power will do about what the 3000kv will do on 2S -- plenty of guts in any situation. The AP05 5000kv on 2S would actually be overkill for this plane.

However, If you wanna fly first cabin, go for the AP05, the XP-7A esc, and run 1S up to 80+ grams or so, and simply by adding the diode, you should be good for 120 grams or so.

One day, if I get bored enough, I'll compare this combo against the E-flite 180 bl's. They have power, but also weigh more, so the outcome may be surprising.

That's all I have for now. I don't have anymore scheduled additions or tests for this airframe, but if something comes up, I may add something later.

Meanwhile, I would love to hear from anyone who is trying this design or who has learned anything, or has some wisdom to pass along to me...
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Old Dec 09, 2012, 08:59 PM
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Update on wing.

Just thought I'd add a brief update based on what I've found out the last few days.

A few days ago, I was flying the MicroTee in a pretty stiff wind, and one wing suddenly folded chordwise after a big gust hit the plane. The plane spiraled in, with no damage save the 1/16" ply motor mount was knocked out of place. A quick hit of the foam-safe CA, and that was fixed.

I took the plane home (the second version of the plane, with the newest wing, described just above), and added two 8-inch lengths of 1.5mm carbon fiber tube.
These were inserted about 1/4" into the foam center rib stack on each side, and glued to the bottom of the wing at about 30% of the chord back from the leading edge, using CA. This only added 1 gram of weight to the aircraft, and is recommended, if you use this undercambered 2mm depron baked wing design.

This modified wing flies nicely up to about 6 mph wind gusts, but above that, the very first version of the wing is much better in the higher winds, say 5-10 mph gusts. Of cource, most sane people wouldn't be out flying a parasol little plane in this weather anyway! But, as I stated earlier in the thread this is as much a research project as a fun airplane to fly.

Oh, and don't forget, this cutie will scale down even further if you want. The biggest limitation I found was the width of the AR6400 RX, which you would have to account for. The size I built here will fly in a full-size gym indoors with average to intermediate skills. A smaller version might be better for beginners.
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Old Jan 04, 2013, 11:55 PM
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Updated plans.

Just noticed that the plan PDF had vanished,so I have posted a slightly revised (updated plan on post #1.
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Old Dec 09, 2013, 01:38 AM
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Have you Tried using the prop from the P-51 on this?
and how well did it preform?

thanks
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