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Old Oct 12, 2012, 02:57 AM
AustinTatious
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Hurst, Texas, United States
Joined Jul 2003
1,952 Posts
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Originally Posted by thunder1 View Post
Our problems aren't created by the fed. They are created by corporations corrupting politicians who control the fed. The gold standard is not any kind of way out of our mess at this point. That's simply a dog that won't hunt.
I didn't say it was the way out. I listed it as part of the key things I would do if I was forced to come up with a solution.... if you oppose the gold standard, then you sport fiat currency. this can be manipulated and inflated.

Quote:
I believe that every current function of government is fully constitutional.
surly you jest? If not I must assume that you simply have not read the constitution. Show me enumeration in the constitution for:

department of energy
department of education
social security
Medicare or Medicare
war on drugs
bigbird
federal grant program
just to name a few

Quote:
I'm optimistic enough to feel that with proper management of our debt, and cutting the right spending, we can work out our problems. Our nation needs to learn that spending huge amounts of money chasing bad guys half way around the world is counter-productive. That, along with trying to make every aspect of our lives as safe and secure as can be with crippling drug laws and insane security requirements, and we have a millstone around our necks the size of the moon.
why don't you look up how much of our spending is from wars and compare that to the current debt and deficits. then do some research on the monetary system... we simply will never pay off the debt, it is an impossibility. It will also be very difficult to reduce the deficits. increasing taxes will likely lead to a slower economy and reduced revenue. reduceing spending will require ripping away entitlements and minding our own damned business across the globe. Neither of which is going to get anyone elected anytime soon. can you say 3rd rail.

I wish I had you optimism

Quote:
I have no doubt if the "yous" and "mes" of this fine nation were to get together and straighten things out, we'd be in fine shape. But there are too many on both of our sides dragging us into the nonsense to make any headway. There is too much money involved, too much corporate influence over government, to allow a reasonable recovery.
the problem as I see it is that we are simply too far down the slope. I agree that lobbying is completely wrong and a big factor in our current situation. this is why if I was calling the shots, the government would be stripped of all its economic and other unconstitutional power. this removes the very power that is manipulated by the corperations. no power, no need to lobby, nothing to manipulate.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 03:02 AM
sensitive artsy type
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyzwell View Post
I don,t think lower taxes are the answer to the problem we face, although I'm all for them. The world economy seems to be in turmoil. No country is producing or exporting as much as they used to because the demand for product has diminished.

No demand for product=no hiring.

lower taxes a little but cut loopholes...ehh I don't see prices changing all that much to turn around the world economy or creating jobs here.
Let me illuminate the truth, US exports have risen to a level higher than before the recession, and actually have increased over the last 40 years with the exception of during recessions.

The story being told is that the US economy is not improving, which is of course, a lie. The stock market has recovered to its pre-crash values, the housing market is finally starting to show signs of recovery, and there are actually significant numbers of new housing starts, home builders and developer stocks are rising significantly. We have restored 5 million lost jobs, the projected seasonal retail hiring is said to be returning this quarter to pre recession levels and many of those positions are expected to turn into permanent jobs.

There is more information on exports here, such as a breakdown into what we actually export and how much...

http://bonddad.blogspot.com/2012/05/...ports-lot.html
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 03:02 AM
AustinTatious
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Hurst, Texas, United States
Joined Jul 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flyzwell View Post
Service based jobs are not enough to support our economy. We need to put people to work manufacturing.

I don't think manufacturing is coming back unless some new invention comes along like the steam engine, railroad, combustion engine, electricity, or computers.
well, obviously that ship has sailed...

look, Manufacturing is still a form of service. the assembly worker gets paid by the company for performing a service, such as screwing the backplate on an iPhone. The customer pays for the materials (which can also at its core be broken down to services rendered) and the workmanship and the profit.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 03:13 AM
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So Cal
Joined May 2008
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Originally Posted by Treetop View Post
Let me illuminate the truth, US exports have risen to a level higher than before the recession, and actually have increased over the last 40 years with the exception of during recessions.

The story being told is that the US economy is not improving, which is of course, a lie. The stock market has recovered to its pre-crash values, the housing market is finally starting to show signs of recovery, and there are actually significant numbers of new housing starts, home builders and developer stocks are rising significantly. We have restored 5 million lost jobs, the projected seasonal retail hiring is said to be returning this quarter to pre recession levels and many of those positions are expected to turn into permanent jobs.

There is more information on exports here, such as a breakdown into what we actually export and how much...

http://bonddad.blogspot.com/2012/05/...ports-lot.html
Thanks for the link.

I notice Fuel oil is 3'rd on the list of exports. I thought we needed a pipeline from Canada and an oil rig on every beach and in Alaska.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 03:22 AM
sensitive artsy type
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
Joined Feb 2004
3,168 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTatious View Post
I didn't say it was the way out. I listed it as part of the key things I would do if I was forced to come up with a solution.... if you oppose the gold standard, then you sport fiat currency. this can be manipulated and inflated.



surly you jest? If not I must assume that you simply have not read the constitution. Show me enumeration in the constitution for:

department of energy
department of education
social security
Medicare or Medicare
war on drugs
bigbird
federal grant program
just to name a few



why don't you look up how much of our spending is from wars and compare that to the current debt and deficits. then do some research on the monetary system... we simply will never pay off the debt, it is an impossibility. It will also be very difficult to reduce the deficits. increasing taxes will likely lead to a slower economy and reduced revenue. reduceing spending will require ripping away entitlements and minding our own damned business across the globe. Neither of which is going to get anyone elected anytime soon. can you say 3rd rail.

I wish I had you optimism



the problem as I see it is that we are simply too far down the slope. I agree that lobbying is completely wrong and a big factor in our current situation. this is why if I was calling the shots, the government would be stripped of all its economic and other unconstitutional power. this removes the very power that is manipulated by the corperations. no power, no need to lobby, nothing to manipulate.
Jest? Hardly. Within the document, the US Constitution, is the arbiter of determining what is and is not legal for the government to do. That would be the courts. The court can be wrong, they are human and subject to err. They ruled segregated public schools were unconstitutional, they ruled on Obamacare, they ruled on a woman's right to choose, and they ruled on campaign finance reform, and they are about to hear challenges to some parts of Affirmative Action.

So your or any citizens interpretation of what is constitutional is simply an opinion and will have differing weights depending on what that opinion is. At one time the court ruled that child labor laws were unconstitutional.

The way around the court ruling is amendment. Once an amendment is passed, the court must honor that amendment as part of the document, unless later repealed.

The arguments of what some citizens interpret are or are not constitutional are tiring. The Supreme Court is the arbiter of what is legal under that document, and what they say goes, until someone offers a challenge that is accepted by the court as valid. The idea that every item of importance to a nation could individually be either anticipated or listed in one document is ridiculous. The Bill of Rights are themselves amendments, after all. Many of the framers of the constitution considered them to be superfluous. But others demanded them in order to consent to ratification of the original.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 04:45 AM
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United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by flyzwell View Post
It doesn't really matter. Raise the tax to 80% or lower it to 2%. If no one is buying they aren't selling.

And if they aren't selling they aren't hiring.
This is absolutely the nub of the 'reduce taxes and create jobs'

It's a nonsense for the reasons you state and even EVEN..........if you do create a job here and a job there, it's tinkering with minutia!

Ryan's espousing on same tells you that - for those of you who can be bothered, just look at the body language - Ryan resorts to the classice clasped hands in front of his midriff posture - it's defensive and with good reason - he's lying, or at best 'projecting' and it won't wash!

But that's 'just' the economy and the economy, crucial as it seemingly is, falls a long way behind foreign policy issues on the priority ladder (what - shock - say honest....)!

Without a safe and stable home, it matters not a hill of beans how rich you are if you can't relax and enjoy it.

Ryan almost went warmongering on that debate and he's just the Veep in waiting (hoping). If you fear for the safety of the USA do not put this man in a position of influence and control on defense matters!
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 05:38 AM
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So Cal
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Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE View Post
This is absolutely the nub of the 'reduce taxes and create jobs'

It's a nonsense for the reasons you state and even EVEN..........if you do create a job here and a job there, it's tinkering with minutia!
I keep hearing over and over again that companies aren't hiring because they are unsure of the future (taxes, obamacare) .

If their warehouses were clearing out faster than the workers were producing it's a sure bet they would be hiring more people no matter who is elected.

The point is nobody is buying. The world economy is in the toilet.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 05:49 AM
My poor poor planes.
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United States, LA, Lake Charles
Joined May 2012
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I just know I don't feel comfortable with our country going down a socialistic path like Europe. Its not who we are and its not what made our country great.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 05:58 AM
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So Cal
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Every man for himself. Get sick, can't afford insurance, don't have $30,000. Just die. O well it's just a life. Sort of like at conception.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 06:14 AM
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So Cal
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Too many people are ripping off the system taking away from the truly needy who have paid their dues.

I believe in, and am willing to support a safety net for the less fortunate who aren't taking advantage.

People in this country seem to care more about their pets than they care about their fellow mankind.
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 06:34 AM
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
Joined Feb 2004
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The majority of the world's people have lived in worse economies for generations. Maybe we need to look at what we value, and what actual happiness is. There are many who live in bad economies who are happy and have rewarding lives. We must look like incredible whiners to most people on the planet.

Romney keeps repeating about the unacceptable level of poverty, 15%. While I might agree it is unacceptable, it certainly is nothing new, and he is using it as a hammer to pound Obama.

The chart kind of shows the reality...
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 06:55 AM
Out of Time
United States, TX
Joined Jul 2003
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Originally Posted by Treetop View Post
The majority of the world's people have lived in worse economies for generations. Maybe we need to look at what we value, and what actual happiness is. There are many who live in bad economies who are happy and have rewarding lives. We must look like incredible whiners to most people on the planet.

Romney keeps repeating about the unacceptable level of poverty, 15%. While I might agree it is unacceptable, it certainly is nothing new, and he is using it as a hammer to pound Obama.

The chart kind of shows the reality...
So now you want the world's normal to be our new normal just because it's Obama who is making it happen?
You admit it's unacceptable, yet, Obama is still your guy even though he's the one driving us further down.

The logic of the left has no logic; maybe that's the problem?
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 07:07 AM
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
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Originally Posted by Highflight View Post
So now you want the world's normal to be our new normal just because it's Obama who is making it happen?
You admit it's unacceptable, yet, Obama is still your guy even though he's the one driving us further down.

The logic of the left has no logic; maybe that's the problem?
Can you read a chart? If you looked at the chart and understood it, you wouldn't be accusing Obama of "making it happen". The number of people in the US in the prosperous 1950's and early 60's was closer to 25%. This is the time all these conservatives dream of returning to. This was a time many referred to as Camelot.

As you can see, recessions cause more people to fall into poverty. Frankly, since we had the worst economic downturn under Bush II since the great depression, it is pretty remarkable that the level of poverty today is about the same as it was when Reagan and Bush I were president. It appears that something that happened under Johnson lifted about 10-12% out of poverty. Can you perhaps define what that was?
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by flyzwell View Post
Service based jobs are not enough to support our economy. We need to put people to work manufacturing.

I don't think manufacturing is coming back unless some new invention comes along like the steam engine, railroad, combustion engine, electricity, or computers.
The USA is where the UK was ten years ago - we lost our manufacturing base - our auto industry bombed (and for the same reason yours has - crappy cars...) and we turned into a nation of money handlers!

Boom and bust was the result and it's what's happened in the USA - no tax incentive is ever going to put that right - you have to dig stuff up - make it into stuff to sell and then sell it at a competitive price.

China - Korea and India can do that - the UK went 'specialist' with quality top end cars and our aeropace industry and has partially redressed the balance but only partially!
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 07:43 AM
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Tucker, Georgia, United States
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Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE View Post
The USA is where the UK was ten years ago - we lost our manufacturing base - our auto industry bombed (and for the same reason yours has - crappy cars...) and we turned into a nation of money handlers!

Boom and bust was the result and it's what's happened in the USA - no tax incentive is ever going to put that right - you have to dig stuff up - make it into stuff to sell and then sell it at a competitive price.

China - Korea and India can do that - the UK went 'specialist' with quality top end cars and our aeropace industry and has partially redressed the balance but only partially!
The US actually exports more than ever, we are close to Germany and third in the world behind China. Our issues are that in the past we produced most of what we consumed, today, we have replaced that with imports from Asia, mainly. Even heavier items like appliances are being made in Mexico, and we had a lot of companies move production to Mexico. So the balance of trade is way out of whack.

This is very interesting though. I have not heard anyone suggest, other than green energy, which we have lagged behind the rest of the world in the current crop of wind and solar, although we do produce a lot of wind energy components here, and things such as raw carbon fiber for those massive blades, it is really too late for that to be the saving grace of job production.

This kind of brings into focus the futility of the discussion by the candidates on Job production. What are we going to do? What will be the new industry which will employ Americans at a wage we need to afford the basics and hopefully a home and tuition for our kids? I have heard nothing outside of the forecast increases in current employment in traditional fields like software engineers and health care.
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