Originally Posted by Jim Thomerson

It was a mistake to make health insurance a benefit of employment in the first place. However we have to deal with today rather than cuss yesterday.

My wife is a classical organist and has always worked part time, with a part time minister of music job, a part time teaching job, and playing concerts. She taught at the university for 22 years without benefits until her last five years. State of Illinois put all employees, part time included, into the state retirement systems. She was vested and gets a few dollars a month, and the benefits. Excessively good deal for her, you might think.

Employer-sponsored health insurance plans dramatically expanded as a direct result of wage controls imposed by the federal government during World War II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_..._United_States

it was born out of necessity.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

Employer-sponsored health insurance plans dramatically expanded as a direct result of wage controls imposed by the federal government during World War II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_..._United_States

it was born out of necessity.

it was never necessary. that was the excuse for yet one more side effect of another layer of the rolling disaster called price controls, this time in wages.

Everything touched by price controls gets screwed up and everything touched by things touched by price controls gets screwed up, all because some clotheads actually think that controlling prices somehow controls individual valuations of items.

Originally Posted by MtnGoat

it was never necessary. that was the excuse for yet one more side effect of another layer of the rolling disaster called price controls, this time in wages.

Everything touched by price controls gets screwed up and everything touched by things touched by price controls gets screwed up, all because some clotheads actually think that controlling prices somehow controls individual valuations of items.

your hyperbole can go on and on without the slightest grasp of reality. I assume you are a WWII labor historian as well as a neo economist?

From the same source:

The labor market was tight because of the increased demand for goods and decreased supply of workers during the war. Federally imposed wage and price controls prohibited manufacturers and other employers from raising wages enough to attract workers. When the War Labor Board declared that fringe benefits, such as sick leave and health insurance, did not count as wages for the purpose of wage controls, employers responded with significantly increased offers of fringe benefits, especially health care coverage, to attract workers

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

you can go on and on sometimes without the slightest grasp of reality.

From the same source:

The labor market was tight because of the increased demand for goods and decreased supply of workers during the war. Federally imposed wage and price controls prohibited manufacturers and other employers from raising wages enough to attract workers. When the War Labor Board declared that fringe benefits, such as sick leave and health insurance, did not count as wages for the purpose of wage controls, employers responded with significantly increased offers of fringe benefits, especially health care coverage, to attract workers

How funny. Your quote demonstrates exactly what I was talking about and yet you are certain I'm the one who has no grasp of reality.

There is little evidence you even understand what you are reading when you read my comments.

The wage controls were unnecessary and the distortions they caused were therefore unnecessary.

Originally Posted by MtnGoat

How funny. Your quote demonstrates exactly what I was talking about and yet you are certain I'm the one who has no grasp of reality.

There is little evidence you even understand what you are reading when you read my comments.

interesting. I thought you said it was never out of necessity.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

interesting. I thought you said it was never out of necessity.

It wasn't, the entire screwed up mess was needless, and pointless, and destructive.

Whatever jackassery the wage freezes cause was multiplied by intentionally ignoring the benefits being offered as pay. The wage freezes were, after all, claimed to reduce the amount of money necessary to get production of X goods done and thus keep spending low.

But all the benefits offered on the side in place of wage hikes cost actual resources too, and the *actual* cost of the 'frozen' workers compensation is the total of wages plus benefits.

In fact, this completely undermined the reasons for the wage freeze in the first place, and in addition embedded a destructive and completely artifical linkage between jobs and healthcare into precedent.

As I said...price controls screw up everything they touch and everything that's been touched, touches, and beyond.

And once again, we have the spectacle of people trying to get us to ignore the real world in order to believe their anti reason views of it, and follow them on into more distortion and economic destruction because they can't even admit what started it off was flawed.

And now that the wage price controls spawned a permanent distortion we've come to the point where another round of price controls is going to be imposed on all of health care. And the people who never learn are all in favor of it.

Originally Posted by BE77 Pilot

You mean his plans to repeal it? That's okay by me.

He's not repealing it - why do you think that - he's stated the opposite!

He will not repeal it.

Romney actually said (during that debate) that he 'admired' Obamacare -c'mon folks, the debate that everyone is praising was when Romney smiled at Obama and said he was using the term 'Obamacare' in a positive light!

Originally Posted by MtnGoat

It wasn't, the entire screwed up mess was needless, and pointless, and destructive.

Whatever jackassery the wage freezes cause was multiplied by intentionally ignoring the benefits being offered as pay. The wage freezes were, after all, claimed to reduce the amount of money necessary to get production of X goods done and thus keep spending low.

But all the benefits offered on the side in place of wage hikes cost actual resources too, and the *actual* cost of the 'frozen' workers compensation is the total of wages plus benefits.

In fact, this completely undermined the reasons for the wage freeze in the first place, and in addition embedded a destructive and completely artifical linkage between jobs and healthcare into precedent.

As I said...price controls screw up everything they touch and everything that's been touched, touches, and beyond.

And once again, we have the spectacle of people trying to get us to ignore the real world in order to believe their anti reason views of it, and follow them on into more distortion and economic destruction because they can't even admit what started it off was flawed.

And now that the wage price controls spawned a permanent distortion we've come to the point where another round of price controls is going to be imposed on all of health care. And the people who never learn are all in favor of it.

The great thing about Jayhawk's posts are that they prove something that I have been saying for a long time and that is that America's problems are not with DC or the people that work there. America's problem is that the overwhelming majority of people in America have "rotted". Life has been so good for so long and people, especially those who have "a good job" and live in the major cities have so lost connection with how a business and economy operates and what work and most importantly suffering really are that they are willing to elect "dreamers" and 'hopers" and "changers" to work for them.

The people that came across a wilderness and fought jealously for everything that they have, expecially their freedom from government, are gone. What is left are the sniveling, whiny, "everybody deserves" mentality group of metrosexual, glass jawed, pansies waiting to be conquered.

Originally Posted by Gooroo

The great thing about Jayhawk's posts are that they prove something that I have been saying for a long time and that is that America's problems are not with DC or the people that work there. America's problem is that the overwhelming majority of people in America have "rotted". Life has been so good for so long and people, especially those who have "a good job" and live in the major cities have so lost connection with how a business and economy operates and what work and most importantly suffering really are that they are willing to elect "dreamers" and 'hopers" and "changers" to work for them.

The people that came across a wilderness and fought jealously for everything that they have, expecially their freedom from government, are gone. What is left are the sniveling, whiny, "everybody deserves" mentality group of metrosexual, glass jawed, pansies waiting to be conquered.

I don't believe the only ones left are the metro sexual groups you refer to. yes, those may be the majority of high earners in urban environments. But once you get out of the city, most of the suburb dwellers don't fit that mold.

I think we can all agree that W was not a dreamer, hoper or changer. Look at the disastrous policies he put in place did for America. I just don't believe that Romney's plan to put back in place many of those policies under Bush is what we need.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

Look at the disastrous policies he put in place did for America. I just don't believe that Romney's plan to put back in place many of those policies under Bush is what we need.

What were those?

Originally Posted by Big Foot 48

What were those?

here's one for a start:
http://www.politicususa.com/romney-bush-mba.html

Romney’s economic plan is a repeat of Bush’s MBA economic mastery that gave over $4 trillion in tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulated the financial sector paving the way for the economic crash heard round the world. Willard promises to give $6.5 to $6.7 trillion in tax cuts to the wealthy and corporations and repeal the Democrat’s financial reform law so Wall Street and corporate banks can repeat the practices that created the Great Recession.

Romney asked the President, “Where are the jobs,” and said the President’s “policies have failed.” Willard claims the economy would be creating 500,000 jobs each month if his policies of heaping more tax breaks on the wealthy and giving the financial sector free-rein were implemented and besides being absurd, it is an insult to Americans to assert that returning to Bush’s economic policies would have any different effect now, than they did four years ago.

Romney also said “undoing the damage you’ve done will be a daunting challenge” and that “I’ve learned a thing or two about how government policies can kill private investment and stifle job creation and I have a plan to get government out of the way.”

Here’s Willard’s problem; Americans have lived through his plan for eight long years, and using his self-professed business acumen will not produce different results than the last MBA president.

Originally Posted by Gooroo

The great thing about Jayhawk's posts are that they prove something that I have been saying for a long time and that is that America's problems are not with DC or the people that work there. America's problem is that the overwhelming majority of people in America have "rotted". Life has been so good for so long and people, especially those who have "a good job" and live in the major cities have so lost connection with how a business and economy operates and what work and most importantly suffering really are that they are willing to elect "dreamers" and 'hopers" and "changers" to work for them.

The people that came across a wilderness and fought jealously for everything that they have, expecially their freedom from government, are gone. What is left are the sniveling, whiny, "everybody deserves" mentality group of metrosexual, glass jawed, pansies waiting to be conquered.

They've already been conquered. They've given away their minds, essentially, because they want to escape reality, and now someone else handles their judgement for them. They *think* they do and protest most vigorously at these claims, but examine the basis way down deep and yes, they pursue unreality and in the fact of the disasters of their own making, demand more.

Every element is the pursuit of unreality and avoidance of the real world. They have all sorts of method...'group' decision making, the idea that reality is not fixed but malleable, the arguments you see here repeatedly that 'no one can really tell', 'it's just opinion', these are all the seeds of attempting to avoid reality. They're just not put that way, but it's what they are. The argument that all is relative and reason cannot always apply is exactly the problem, because ideas turn into actions and they tell you upfront their ideas cannot 'always' conform to logic. What acting on reasons which cannot conform to logic will result in here in the real world is self evident.

Those not making mistakes are supposed to fix the problems of those who are, thus ending the benefit of being careful not to make them. Those unable to create are held to me *more* morally justified in getting resources than the very people who created them. They are told no one person can make valid judgements, but somehow, everyone all at once, does.

And the basis....feelings.

They claim all our sins (greed, selfishness, etc) cause all these problems, but the fact is that the State has made incredible inroads in imposing the actions they want, for the reasons they want, on all of us.

They have never been *more* successful in the imposition of their morality of control, and yet this is resulting in ever more problems.

When the success in implementing ever more of your morality by actually results in more problems, one would think one might actually question the basis of that morality. The massive budget problems, the unrest, the chaos......we're not seeing the outcomes of the *failures* of imposing their morality. They've been enormously successful in getting their morality turned in to law. The disasters we're seeing the outcomes of their *success* in imposing it, not the result of everyone else's sins. The left largely gets it's way.

That the results are not what they'd claimed are the outcome of applying irrational means to the real world and expecting fantasy to force reality to yield. They look in horror at the real world results of their programs and then claim it can't be the result of what they successfully imposed.

Yes it can. Because to them, the 'success' is in the high minded caring and feelings, and the *wanting* it to work, and the act of imposing the ideas.

The 'success' is the *existence* of a program or law, and it's screwed up outcome is explained away with 'well it's a good start we'll have to work on it'. Sound familiar with regard to health care?

When your ideas do not match reality and you act on them anyway, your result will not be what you intend. This is what we saw in prior posters arguments concerning wage controls. He and those people of the day actually behaved as if actual cost was only the numbers on a paycheck. It's not. It was the sum total of all the resources used per job, and they screwed their own price controls.

Originally Posted by DenverJayhawk

here's one for a start:
http://www.politicususa.com/romney-bush-mba.html

Romney’s economic plan is a repeat of Bush’s MBA economic mastery that gave over $4 trillion in tax cuts to the wealthy and deregulated the financial sector paving the way for the economic crash heard round the world.

I read through that article and don't see a list of what Bush deregulated that caused the crash, just a lot of ranting. We know Clinton signed the deregulation (Glass-Steagal repeal) that set the stage for the crash, but what specifically did Bush do?

The tax cuts provided growth in the 2000's and Obama has continued them. Tax cuts don't cause market crashes.

So again, what were Bush's "disastrous policies" that Romney wants to re-install?

List of Deregulation that may have contributed to the crash - don't see much Bush did in this list: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financi...8#Deregulation