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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:54 PM
Redacted per NSA "suggestion"
dedStik's Avatar
United States, VA, Virginia Beach
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE View Post
B/S

Sorry friend but that's B/S for the masses as pumped out by the Washington machine and it no longer convinces many of us!
Are you saying there is no collateral damage, or that we target children. I'm confused.

As far as Washington goes has nothing to do with it. If the potential to save more lives out weighs the number of innocent lives lost in an action or strike more than justifies the loss.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:55 PM
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Central Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE View Post
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

rubbish
Bin Laden said it himself.... Unless your saying that the media made it up?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by dedStik View Post
Are you saying there is no collateral damage, or that we target children. I'm confused.

As far as Washington goes has nothing to do with it. If the potential to save more lives out weighs the number of innocent lives lost in an action or strike more than justifies the loss.
I'm saying that when a military officer gets out of bed in 'sleepyville' and drives the Chevvy to the office, fires up the PC and 'drones' a few collaterals off the face of the planet in far away countries, and then Chevvies his way home again after an 8 hour shift, calling in at Walmart for ice-cream and cookies, he probably doesn't think much about collateral damage!

That's about what I'm saying - we've become 'technologically desensitised' to killing innocents.

Take that same soldier (airman - whatever - whoever) and put a bayonet in his hand and stick him on the front line and he'd be a tad more selective!
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 01:16 PM
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United States, MI, Fenton
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ambientech and others for that matter.....

Keep one thing in mind when talking about collateral damage to a Brit. They were huge victims of that in WWII. We Americans have a lot less personal experience with it.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 01:16 PM
Not THAT Ira
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Coupeville, Wa
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Just read the story and could only think of this.....

“But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” —Matthew 18:6
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 01:22 PM
Chillin till SEFF
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Warner Robins, GA
Joined Aug 2003
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Nice

But they do it too don't work in this instance. We don't target little girls
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 01:41 PM
Libertas in Infinitum
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Houston Ellington, Texas, United States
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Originally Posted by bildo baggins View Post
Nice

But they do it too don't work in this instance. We don't target little girls
Target them or not, this President has killed many of them post Nobel prize.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 01:54 PM
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Killing innocents in the act of getting the bad guy is like going deer hunting and accidentally shooting another hunter. When hunters do that, they are held responsible for killing the person because they had the responsibility of know who/what they were shooting at. Simply because this is a war doesn't mean the morality changes, IMHO. You either know what you are shooting at or don't shoot. We've reduced ourselves to saying the ends justify the means. It's probably the way war has always been but that's pretty bad and I think we could do a much better job of protecting innocents than we have. Of course, that may be at the expense of our own soldiers so we had darn well better take that into account before we start these wars.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:08 PM
Radix malorum est cupiditas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
Killing innocents in the act of getting the bad guy is like going deer hunting and accidentally shooting another hunter. When hunters do that, they are held responsible for killing the person because they had the responsibility of know who/what they were shooting at. Simply because this is a war doesn't mean the morality changes, IMHO. You either know what you are shooting at or don't shoot. We've reduced ourselves to saying the ends justify the means. it's probably the way war has always been but that's pretty bad.
My concern is that the idea of war as you propose it - is really believed as possible.

We seem to be getting to the point where we think that smart bombs, drones and the rest - are going to turn war into a surgical policing action.

I see it a bit differently. War is - and has always been - that last resort that lies beyond diplomacy, reason, logic, and the rest. War is what happens when ( as you say) the decision is made that the "end" justifies the unjustifiable - the wholesale death of those in opposition.

I simply suggest that what we find ourselves involved in now is not war at all - the issues are simply not grave enough for us to cast aside civilization and resort to a pure contest of strength - what we are involved in now is a misplaced belief that we can police the world into a desired shape.

I don't think cops from far away are ever going to pacify a population - for every good they can do another grievance will be inflicted.

Heck, if all it take is some shock troops slapping down a few baddies to make a community safe, our inner cities would not look like they do.

I think the idea of clean and sanitary war will only mean US troops fighting and dieing all over the world in thousands of meaningless exchanges.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
Killing innocents in the act of getting the bad guy is like going deer hunting and accidentally shooting another hunter. When hunters do that, they are held responsible for killing the person because they had the responsibility of know who/what they were shooting at. Simply because this is a war doesn't mean the morality changes, IMHO. You either know what you are shooting at or don't shoot. We've reduced ourselves to saying the ends justify the means. It's probably the way war has always been but that's pretty bad and I think we could do a much better job of protecting innocents than we have. Of course, that may be at the expense of our own soldiers so we had darn well better take that into account before we start these wars.
The best thing we could ever do is to let them fight their own battles. They neither appreciate or want our help. I would much rather hear the world whine that we won't get involved as opposed to whining that we are. It costs a lot less of everything when we are not involved.

The foreign policy debate will be tough for Romeny, since, other than bowing and apologizing, Romney and Obamam have essentially the same foreign policy.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:14 PM
E-flyer since 1981
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Originally Posted by ENGINETORQUE View Post
rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

rubbish
If drones stop, and all Western efforts stop, the Taliban will still continue killing young girls who try to get an education.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
If drones stop, and all Western efforts stop, the Taliban will still continue killing young girls who try to get an education.
At some point some more level headed people in the ME need to say enough is enough. How can they just sit by and watch their daughters be treated that way? If anybody ever treated my daughters like that, I would be going after them with my last dieing breath. I imagine most westerners feel the same way. Why don't they feel that way over there? Why don't don't they defend their babies? I'm just totally baffled by that.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:40 PM
E-flyer since 1981
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz View Post
At some point some more level headed people in the ME need to say enough is enough. How can they just sit by and watch their daughters be treated that way? If anybody ever treated my daughters like that, I would be going after them with my last dieing breath. I imagine most westerners feel the same way. Why don't they feel that way over there? Why don't don't they defend their babies? I'm just totally baffled by that.
Yup! At some point. Left to their own, that point might be a few hundred years from now.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:44 PM
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It is amazing how quickly and effectively ET flipped the conversation toward the
use of drones!
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 03:06 PM
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United States, MI, Fenton
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Yup! At some point. Left to their own, that point might be a few hundred years from now.
But why... I so don't understand that. I love my children more than life itself and it was especially that way when they were young.
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