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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:14 AM
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Scotland UK
Joined Jan 2005
276 Posts
Hi Murph,
Sounds fine to me as it is. I can see no advantage in putting in a different motor if all is well.
If you put in a lighter motor set up will you get the power and what will the effect on your CG be. You may have to move the battery forward or even worse add lead to the nose.
Ian
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 06:59 PM
Fly It Like You Stole It !!
Paulbilbo91z9f's Avatar
United States, MA, Pittsfield
Joined Sep 2011
244 Posts
Hi Ian,

I guess it's the age old adage; If it ain't broke, Don't Fix it......

The disser flies great the way it is and by changing the size of the battery pack I can ballast the plane for just about any condition. I have a light pack at 850mAh, a 1000 pack, a 2200 pack, all 3S. And a 4S 2500 for the big air days.

I also have a very easy way to keep my CG perfect with each battery change. I glued Velcro inside the fuse and to the bottom of each battery. Inside on the side of the fuse I painted a reference mark. On each battery I used a Sharpe marker to draw a line that when matched to the fuse mark gives the perfect CG every time. No fussing at the field and no need for a ballast tube in the plane. Without the tube in your way, you have all kinds of room for different batteries and and it allows moving them around for proper CG. If you feel a little more aggressive you can place the battery slightly behind the CG mark, or if it's windy and you want a little more stability, a little forward of the line.

This is what I've come up with and it works slick for me....

Murph
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Old Feb 14, 2013, 09:14 PM
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Murph,
It sounds to me like you have a system that is working great for you. ALES is not particularly taxing as far as power requirements are concerned.I set my Aspire up the way I did so I could easily switch out the packs for servicing. I noted that some of my friends had setups that were difficult to get the packs out, so they choose to charge the batteries in the model... I just don't do that with Lipos..
My first Aspire Electro is 67 ounces so it is light. If the ar is active and there is a breeze the Aspire is very happy at 78-82 ounces... It goes up well, and still streaks home... Enjoy your Aspire and good luck with it. LJ
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Old Feb 15, 2013, 06:23 AM
Fly It Like You Stole It !!
Paulbilbo91z9f's Avatar
United States, MA, Pittsfield
Joined Sep 2011
244 Posts
Larry,

I agree with you, I NEVER charge batteries in the plane. I even have a glass jar setting on my charging shelf in my shop that I place the batteries in when charging them in case of a puff.....

And, Believe It or Not, the best soaring days I've had have been with the Aspire Maxed-Out with the biggest battery for ballast. I made just shy of 3,000 feet a couple of times last summer. (Ram chip installed) Even 3.7m gets pretty small at that distance.

Thanks for the "Thumbs-Up!" on my set-up. Love the Aspire.

Murph
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 12:01 AM
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United States, CA, Hesperia
Joined Mar 2009
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sneu View Post
Given that vast majority of flights are flown other than zero lift still air it does not seem to make sense to me to optimize a design for the minority condition. The ability to search more area for lift beats a slight sink rate advantage nearly every time.

Steve Neu
Hi Steve,
I purchased a 1506/2D/S/6.7 (12 Volt) last year to put in a Supra-Pro E.
The 1506 was manufactured July 29th 2011.
Turns out the 1506 is somewhat heavy for my Supra setup and is very hard on 65C 3S 1300mAh batteries (pulls them down below 9Volts in 15 seconds).
Don is running a Neu 1107/3100/2Y (18Volt) with the 6.7 gearbox with a 65C 3S 850mAh battery and getting 30 second runs.
So I am looking to get an 1107 and put the gearbox from my 1506 on it. This would be 3.3 oz lighter and help with my CG to boot.
Will the gearbox I have on the 1506 fit on the 1107?
Rick
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 09:11 AM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,664 Posts
Just a heads up for Neu motor fans who are sort of stuck on their 1500 series motors. The 1500 series with the P32 gearboxes are really nice, but they are substantially heavier AND bulkier than his 1100 series with the P29 gearbox.

For our ALES applications you can get 1100 series motors in the same power ranges as the 1500 series motors with the P29 gearbox and you will save several ounces to boot. The P29 gearbox apparently has the same guts as the P32, but is much slimmer and these motors will easily fit where the 1500's won't.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 09:29 AM
Skye Malcolm
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Upper Arlington, OH
Joined Mar 2009
644 Posts
Murph,

Would you mind posting pictures of your plane, especially how you get the battery in and out from under the wing? Or if pictures are a pain, maybe just describe if you slide the battery from the front hatch or if you've got an access hole under the wing...

Thanks in advance,
Skye
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 11:25 AM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,664 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotLift9369 View Post
Hi Steve,
So I am looking to get an 1107 and put the gearbox from my 1506 on it. This would be 3.3 oz lighter and help with my CG to boot.
Will the gearbox I have on the 1506 fit on the 1107?
Rick
Yes, the P32 gearbox will fit on the 1107. I had a 1105 fitted with one once. But you will like the 1107 fitted with the P29 gearbox a lot better. It is lighter and much slimmer. The P32 may fit your current plane quite well, but many of the newer planes have noses which are simply too narrow to fit it. An 1107 with the P29 ought to be useful for a long time.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 01:13 PM
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Modesto CA
Joined Nov 2009
165 Posts
+1 on the P29 -1100 series motors. A spacer is required to mate the P32 to an 1100 series motor which makes the combination longer. I fly my Maxa with the the P29 combination and there is room to get a 1800 mah battery in and out without using a tray.
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 01:30 PM
Fly It Like You Stole It !!
Paulbilbo91z9f's Avatar
United States, MA, Pittsfield
Joined Sep 2011
244 Posts
Skye,

Here is the thread that I copied for my Aspire ALES build.

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1239669

These pictures are exactly the same as my Aspire. I cut 3 holes in the wing saddle as shown and moved the servos and receiver back under the wing. The batteries are put in through the canopy and pushed backward for correct CG. No Ballast Tube... I've done almost the exact same build on a Pike conversion and it too has proven an excellent flier set up this way.

Larry is correct in saying that you don't need a super powerful motor set-up for ALES. However, a plane set up like this gives you the option of running big or small power and heavy or light weight with no modification to your plane, motor or ESC needed. Just bigger or smaller batteries with more or less C-Rating. The only thing you need to watch out for is to use an ESC that has the ability to handle your BIGGEST battery/power need. Most of the time it will be running way under it's max rating, but when you power-up, it has to be big enough for the max load.

If I can help with anything or any more specific questions, please let me know.

Murph
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 03:27 PM
Skye Malcolm
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Upper Arlington, OH
Joined Mar 2009
644 Posts
Murph,

Thanks for the link. In your plane does the battery cross over the CG a bit more? Seems like one of his rudder or elevator servos is taking up that real estate. I was picturing your plane having more of a space where big and small batteries can get somewhat centered over the CG point, which is what, about 120 mm behind the leading edge?

Skye
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 06:41 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,664 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paulbilbo91z9f View Post

Larry is correct in saying that you don't need a super powerful motor set-up for ALES. However, a plane set up like this gives you the option of running big or small power and heavy or light weight with no modification to your plane, motor or ESC needed. Just bigger or smaller batteries with more or less C-Rating. The only thing you need to watch out for is to use an ESC that has the ability to handle your BIGGEST battery/power need. Most of the time it will be running way under it's max rating, but when you power-up, it has to be big enough for the max load.

Murph
There are a lot of different ideas about how much power is enough. I have had planes which could make 200 meters and OOS in 13 or so seconds. It is fun, and if that blows your hair back its great. But the more I fiddle with planes and power systems, the more I come to realize how true Larry's observation is.

I have written a simple program for estimating performance which I will publish in RCSD in a month or so. It is designed to provide an ESTIMATE for input power based on your plane characteristics and what you want it to do. You input span, weight and ballast. And then you input launch altitude, distance to windward, windspeed and expected launch time. The program spits out estimated motor input power and propeller pitch speed.

While it is thrilling to see your plane make its launch altitude in 12 or 13 seconds, it doesn't make much sense in the ALES (or F5J context) when you are allowed up to 30 seconds on the motor. Why throw 14 or so seconds away on every launch?

My original Maxa gets 200 meters to windward and 200 meters altitude in about 23-24 seconds with around 400 watts input. The program estimates 336 watts for 25 seconds. Just fine, but when the wind comes up, maybe a little weak. The program suggests that when the wind comes up to 15 mph, it will take about 470 watts to get 200 meters to windward. And when the wind comes up, I would like to be able to go even further to windward. To get 300 meters to windward I would need about 620 watts. Adding 12 ounces of ballast ups that to about 675 watts. If the wind gets up to 20 mph I need about 800 watts to get 300 meters to windward with 12 ounces of ballast. And to get 400 meters to windward I need about 1100 watts. Obviously, the more power you add, the farther you can get to windward. But at 400 to 500 meters you reach a point of diminishing returns. My own opinion is that going over 1500 watts is not going to be very productive -- but to each his own. And Neu has an 1100 series motor and P29 gearbox which will get you anywhere from 400 to 1500 watts with ease -- and with no extra weight.

My original Maxa was powered by a Neu 1105 with a Maxon 4:1 gearbox. An 850 mah 3S pack is adequate. Based on bench tests, the motor would probably handle about 600 watts without getting too hot. But the gearbox is only rated at 400 watts and I didn't feel like pushing it. I am currently finishing another Maxa with a Neu 1107 and a 6.7:1 P29 gearbox. Based on bench tests, I believe that this setup is probably good for 750 or so watts, but I have sized it out to use an 850 4S 65C pack for about 650 to 700 watts input. That puts me in the 300 meter to windward range with 12 ounces of ballast and 15 mph headwind. For me that is probably good enough given my old eyes and a honey badger attitude about soaring when the wind comes up.

My intention with the motor I selected is to run two different setups -- a 450 to 500 watt setup with an 850 3S 65C pack for most flying and a 650 to 700 watt setup with an 850 4S 65C pack when it is windy and I am flying with ballast. All I need to do to switch between setups is to select the right battery and change props. It is reasonable to ask why not just let it rip all the time? Besides not wanting to waste perfectly good motor run time, I have found on the 12-13 second planes that I have flown that a longer motor run gives you more time to think about what your are doing. This is a good thing for an old goat like me -- but maybe not so bad for better flyers who don't necessarily want to show everybody well in advance where to fly.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 06:42 PM
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GotLift9369's Avatar
United States, CA, Hesperia
Joined Mar 2009
81 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharban View Post
Just a heads up for Neu motor fans who are sort of stuck on their 1500 series motors. The 1500 series with the P32 gearboxes are really nice, but they are substantially heavier AND bulkier than his 1100 series with the P29 gearbox.

For our ALES applications you can get 1100 series motors in the same power ranges as the 1500 series motors with the P29 gearbox and you will save several ounces to boot. The P29 gearbox apparently has the same guts as the P32, but is much slimmer and these motors will easily fit where the 1500's won't.

Happy Landings,

Don
Don... do you know what the firewall bolt pattern difference are, if any, between the P29 and P32 gearboxes?
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 06:47 PM
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GotLift9369's Avatar
United States, CA, Hesperia
Joined Mar 2009
81 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dharban View Post
There are a lot of different ideas about how much power is enough. I have had planes which could make 200 meters and OOS in 13 or so seconds. It is fun, and if that blows your hair back its great. But the more I fiddle with planes and power systems, the more I come to realize how true Larry's observation is.

I have written a simple program for estimating performance which I will publish in RCSD in a month or so. It is designed to provide an ESTIMATE for input power based on your plane characteristics and what you want it to do. You input span, weight and ballast. And then you input launch altitude, distance to windward, windspeed and expected launch time. The program spits out estimated motor input power and propeller pitch speed.

While it is thrilling to see your plane make its launch altitude in 12 or 13 seconds, it doesn't make much sense in the ALES (or F5J context) when you are allowed up to 30 seconds on the motor. Why throw 14 or so seconds away on every launch?

My original Maxa gets 200 meters to windward and 200 meters altitude in about 23-24 seconds with around 400 watts input. The program estimates 336 watts for 25 seconds. Just fine, but when the wind comes up, maybe a little weak. The program suggests that when the wind comes up to 15 mph, it will take about 470 watts to get 200 meters to windward. And when the wind comes up, I would like to be able to go even further to windward. To get 300 meters to windward I would need about 620 watts. Adding 12 ounces of ballast ups that to about 675 watts. If the wind gets up to 20 mph I need about 800 watts to get 300 meters to windward with 12 ounces of ballast. And to get 400 meters to windward I need about 1100 watts. Obviously, the more power you add, the farther you can get to windward. But at 400 to 500 meters you reach a point of diminishing returns. My own opinion is that going over 1500 watts is not going to be very productive -- but to each his own. And Neu has an 1100 series motor and P29 gearbox which will get you anywhere from 400 to 1500 watts with ease -- and with no extra weight.

My original Maxa was powered by a Neu 1105 with a Maxon 4:1 gearbox. An 850 mah 3S pack is adequate. Based on bench tests, the motor would probably handle about 600 watts without getting too hot. But the gearbox is only rated at 400 watts and I didn't feel like pushing it. I am currently finishing another Maxa with a Neu 1107 and a 6.7:1 P29 gearbox. Based on bench tests, I believe that this setup is probably good for 750 or so watts, but I have sized it out to use an 850 4S 65C pack for about 650 to 700 watts input. That puts me in the 300 meter to windward range with 12 ounces of ballast and 15 mph headwind. For me that is probably good enough given my old eyes and a honey badger attitude about soaring when the wind comes up.

My intention with the motor I selected is to run two different setups -- a 450 to 500 watt setup with an 850 3S 65C pack for most flying and a 650 to 700 watt setup with an 850 4S 65C pack when it is windy and I am flying with ballast. All I need to do to switch between setups is to select the right battery and change props. It is reasonable to ask why not just let it rip all the time? Besides not wanting to waste perfectly good motor run time, I have found on the 12-13 second planes that I have flown that a longer motor run gives you more time to think about what your are doing. This is a good thing for an old goat like me -- but maybe not so bad for better flyers who don't necessarily want to show everybody well in advance where to fly.

Happy Landings,

Don
Don...are your 3S & 4S 850 65C packs made by TP?
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Old Feb 17, 2013, 07:01 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
dharban's Avatar
Tulsa, OK
Joined May 2004
2,664 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by GotLift9369 View Post
Don... do you know what the firewall bolt pattern difference are, if any, between the P29 and P32 gearboxes?
The P29 bolt circle is slightly smaller, but no so small that you cant solve it by hogging out the holes for the P32.

My practice on all of my planes is to fabricate aluminum bulkheads to glue to the front and back of the installed bulkhead to strengthen the nose. I mostly fly Vladimir's models and the stock bulkheads have the habit of allowing the tiny mounting screws and washers to push through on modestly vigorous landings.

Happy Landings,

Don
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