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Old Nov 22, 2012, 02:13 PM
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This discussion is very interesting, as it gives a good insight into the different reasons why we fly in competitions.I have developed the habit of making sure that my model is serviceable after landing, and ready to go again.If you can afford to have the 3 allowed models in your van, and risk serious damage by diving into the ground to score landing points, knowing that you have two back up models, then good luck. If you have only one model then as far as I am concerned, dorking is not an option, therefore you are flying for fun and you are happy to see someone else take the trophies.After all the winners have to have someone to beat, don't they.



Ken.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 02:41 PM
Red Merle ALES
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Landings are 5% of the total score.

The landings are 50 points maximum and added after the flight scores are normalized to 1,000 points. So landings are a total of 5% of the overall score.

Larry is right though about the best possibility of score changing is in the landing zone. I think the runway may be a good idea; although I've never used one.

Attached is an example of a score where someone maxes the flight time and someone who doesn't and the landing he/she needs to tie the perfect time.

There has to be a means to end the flight on a spot on the ground. i.e. an inbounds area. If their is no landing area and the inbounds area is huge I could stop on time, every time.

When I lived in England F3J had a large circle but I see they've done away with it, what was the rationale behind that? Perhaps it pertains here.

Curtis
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 03:20 PM
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Curtis, F3J changed landings because everyone was getting 100's, it was 2M across. So they broke down 100-85 points that every point was 10cm of the radius and then it went from 80, to 75, 70, 65, etc. down the way in bigger chunks. But basically, if you are not nailing 97 landings, and leaving just about no time left on the clock, you loose.

And you are going to see ALES landings scores get way higher and I would guess that in time CD's will start using the landing like LJ brought up, which I still think is the perfect landing task for ALES and have stated on other occasions. The current landing works OK, but as this class toughens up and fliers fly more full house ships and figure out how to install the FW's in a fashion that the ship can be poked and the motor holds up to the stick, it will not be tough enough, both from a task standpoint and keeping ties from occurring.

Marc
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 04:03 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
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Originally Posted by knormang View Post
This discussion is very interesting, as it gives a good insight into the different reasons why we fly in competitions.I have developed the habit of making sure that my model is serviceable after landing, and ready to go again.If you can afford to have the 3 allowed models in your van, and risk serious damage by diving into the ground to score landing points, knowing that you have two back up models, then good luck. If you have only one model then as far as I am concerned, dorking is not an option, therefore you are flying for fun and you are happy to see someone else take the trophies.After all the winners have to have someone to beat, don't they.



Ken.
Ken,

What you are missing here is that there is a continuum between a graceful slide into the mark and a full on "lawn dart" landing. Perhaps everything beyond a graceful slide would be considered a "dork" by some observers. Even if that is true, there are degrees of "dork" landings which are easily tolerated by the models we fly -- and my experience at testing the limit suggests that our planes will easily tolerate much more than we usually see right now.

I am not advocating "dork" landing but I am observing that skilled pilots who practice a few hundreds of landings will discover that arresting the plane at the end of a reasonable landing approach by putting the nose down fairly firmly will eliminate the probability of sliding past the 50 zone. If that is a dork, so be it.

The rules we write, no matter how we think they will eventually be used, will,themselves, design our planes and dictate the techniques we use to maximize our prospects to win.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 04:15 PM
Flying = Falling (Slowly)
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Originally Posted by CloudyIFR View Post
Landings are 5% of the total score.

The landings are 50 points maximum and added after the flight scores are normalized to 1,000 points. So landings are a total of 5% of the overall score.

Larry is right though about the best possibility of score changing is in the landing zone. I think the runway may be a good idea; although I've never used one.

Attached is an example of a score where someone maxes the flight time and someone who doesn't and the landing he/she needs to tie the perfect time.

There has to be a means to end the flight on a spot on the ground. i.e. an inbounds area. If their is no landing area and the inbounds area is huge I could stop on time, every time.

When I lived in England F3J had a large circle but I see they've done away with it, what was the rationale behind that? Perhaps it pertains here.

Curtis
Consider the possibility that there is a material difference between "available points" and "points reasonably in play". In the extreme consider a 200 meter task with a 2 minute target time. It is fairly safe to say that every contestant can make 2 minutes every time. The difference between contestants would likely boil down to how accurately they could hit the 2 minute target. 1000 points might be available, but only a few of those points are "in play".

While this is an extreme example, it can be extrapolated to our landing and flight tasks as they sit now. Two factors come into play in designing good tasks. First that they are intrinsically difficult enough to result in different outcomes between competitors. And second, that the relative difficulty between our landing and flight tasks are balanced enough so that excellent performances are required in both to succeed at the event.

Our challenge is to design tasks that will reasonably result in skill differentiated outcomes between competitors and to structure them so that both are necessary components for success.

Happy Landings,

Don
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 05:24 PM
agnotology
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Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
My preference would be a runway landing with single point per segment delta so that there is a more balanced score between glide and landing......
I don't understand how the runway landing works with multiple competitors all landing at nearly the same time. From the rules, I envision a stripe down the middle of the runway, and you try to land as close to the strip as possible? How does that work with a bunch of gliders all on final? Or does each competitor get their own stripe of some set length?

Do the F3J (?) rules with the pilot getting more points for low motor shut-off reduce the landing score being the deciding factor?

I'm looking forward to the day when the local competitions are FPV cross country races around GPS course markers, and you only have to land safely in-bounds. All these landing score discussions for soaring competitions leave me cold.

Kevin
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 06:22 PM
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Kevin,
I see GPS triangle racing as the ultimate RC Soaring experience. Look over in the x-country forum to get an idea.. However precision landings are a serious provision of full size soaring. I wouldn't even consider leaving glide to an airport if I could not get my glider down in 450 ft.. The ramifications of landing long or short is of real consequence to the pilot who is the first one on the scene of the accident so to speak...
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 06:34 PM
Red Merle ALES
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Kevin,

In Man-on-Man ALES each pilot has their own launch and landing zone. This is where landing tapes allow easy setup and tear down compared to a painting a landing zone. It is also why ALES in the USA does not have different launch heights for different points as it adds to the complexity of running the contest.

In ALES a contest can be run with with only a laptop/iPad, landing tapes and watches; a printer isn't even required.

Curtis
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:01 PM
agnotology
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5Larry,

I've been following the development of XC GPS racing. It is starting to look very interesting.

I still don't understand how the runway system works in practice? Does each pilot have a limited length stripe (laid out how?), or is it a free-for-all on a long runway?

Getting a full-size glider down safely in confined landing field is a far different task than making an RC sailplane stop on a button. Off field landings are not a scored part of the contest, and the best pilots usually avoid it entirely. I probably have more off-field landings on XC flights than 10 full-size sailplane pilots combined, admittedly all in hang gliders. They are easier to get down and fly slower, but of course you use up those margins as well and end up landing in smaller holes.

Curtis,

I have flown about 200 rounds of ALES in the last year, with just two of us out on Vancouver Island, with a calculator and piece of paper. I'm just thinking if F5J (or whatever it is) rules make the soaring part of the flight where the point separation is, then that is far more interesting to me. We have reached the point of damaging admittedly fragile e-gliders on the spot landing. I just don't enjoy that part of it.

It doesn't seem that hard to plug in a display to read the shut-off height, and if you have a laptop for scoring already it isn't much difference in complexity. I have a Winged Shadow cut-off, and the procedure seems easy and quick enough. If that is all it takes to make a more interesting (to me) soaring contest, then I can live with it.

As the discussion here highlights, I can see ALES turning into a spot landing contest as the rules are. That doesn't appeal to me.

Kevin
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 08:58 PM
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Kevin, with the runway landing, each pilot has his own "runway" that is usually centerlined by a string line and you have a measuring device to determine how far from the centerline you have landed. In the ALES case, a fifty inch stick, usually a piece of pvc pipe can be used that has been demarcated and every inch is a point, so 5" off center, then you get a 45 point landing.

Marc
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:09 PM
AMA7224 LSF1832
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.......As the discussion here highlights, I can see ALES turning into a spot landing contest as the rules are. That doesn't appeal to me.......

Ditto
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:19 PM
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LC and Kevin, normal TD/ALES times (10-13 minutes) are not that hard to make in fairly normal conditions. No matter what contest format, if it is a decent day, landings will always be the placer in most contests. Now, if you fly in conditions something like the Masters was flown in this fall, wind, highly variable lift over three days, then flight times become a much higher value portion of the event, heck just getting on the field meant alot.

Good or bad, all of our events can be landing contests if it is nice.

Marc
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:26 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
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Originally Posted by OVSS Boss View Post
Kevin, with the runway landing, each pilot has his own "runway" that is usually centerlined by a string line and you have a measuring device to determine how far from the centerline you have landed. In the ALES case, a fifty inch stick, usually a piece of pvc pipe can be used that has been demarcated and every inch is a point, so 5" off center, then you get a 45 point landing.

Marc
My opinion is that such a task (i.e., 1 point per inch) will be too difficult for most of the ALES contestants but just fine for the big boys - which (at this time) will be demotivating for many more that it will be attractive and result in a loss of attendance at ALES contests. Maybe every 3 or 4" per point. Just a thought.
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:33 PM
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Actually, a CD could do it anyway they choose, but it has normally been done 1"/point. Tomatoe, Tomahtoe, which ever trips a guys trigger.

But here is the rub Jaizon, the sheltered world of ALES will change a lot in this next season I think, the big boys are coming.

Marc
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Old Nov 22, 2012, 09:43 PM
WINS - Winch In Nose Sailplane
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Originally Posted by OVSS Boss View Post
Actually, a CD could do it anyway they choose, but it has normally been done 1"/point. Tomatoe, Tomahtoe, which ever trips a guys trigger.

But here is the rub Jaizon, the sheltered world of ALES will change a lot in this next season I think, the big boys are coming.

Marc
Yeah, I guess you're right about that.
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