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Old Dec 20, 2003, 06:31 AM
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Parkton, MD
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RysiuM

How are you measuring power out? Did you make a torque meter?

tnx
jtm
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Old Dec 20, 2003, 12:20 PM
Why not Delta?
rysium's Avatar
Sacramento, CA
Joined Jun 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by Jim Miller
RysiuM
How are you measuring power out? Did you make a torque meter?
No, not yet. I will. Soon.
I used my prop calculator based on prop size and rpm. I looks like it's not much off when I run Takao's data and his measured results.
I know, it's still not 100% correct, but I hope maybe +/- 10%.
When I build my torque meter I will know for sure.

RysiuM
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Old Dec 20, 2003, 08:09 PM
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Tokyo, Japan
Joined Nov 2002
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Re-measured the copper loss

I had used my DC power supply source meter.
The measureing current is 0.5A.

The copper wire resinstance at one phase wing is 0.3056 ohm.

The copper loss is 5.7^2 * 0.3=9.75W at APC 5.5x4.5, 10kRPM Direct Drive, 2s E-tec.

Also, We have to consider the loss on ESC MOSFET, It is about 15mill. ohm.

Obviously, 3s system is better by this result.
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 05:35 PM
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USA, FL, Orlando
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Gentlemen:

This thread is fascinating. I couldn't wait to get home and give it a try so forgive me for asking stupid questions and being behind the 8 ball. Here is what I got so far. I took the cdrom apart and split the motor in 2 pieces. I think next referring to the original post, I must de solder and rewire into a delta position? Is that absolutely necessary or will the motor work without all that rework?
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 05:48 PM
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new photo

Sorry, the file was too big. I shrunk it down and this should work I hope.
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 05:51 PM
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And if you look at the above pic, should I separate the 2 pieces to the right? ie. the ones attached that are not the wires or magnets but the two at the right of the picture?
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 07:31 PM
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Edmonds Wa. (Seattle)
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OK,
First off you need to remove the stator it is the one on the left then you can rewind it re a semble it and solder it up and you should be good to go!
rcflyer2
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 08:30 PM
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The motor should work "as is". The Kv of the motor (rpm/V) is usually too low, it is working, but at 6-8 cells the maximum rpm and power is too low.

If you reconnect it to delta, the result is 1,7 times higher Kv. Similar result, if you rewind it with a thicker wire and 1,7 times lower turn number.

If your magnet ring is black, then the motor can't give really good power and efficiency unless you replace the ring to 12 pcs of neodym magnets. The grey ring is much better then a black one...
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Last edited by mmormota; Dec 21, 2003 at 08:32 PM.
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 08:54 PM
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RCflyer and mrmota:

Thanks for your input. To remove the stator? Sorry for my ignorance, what is a stator? Never mind. The one on the left is the entire stator then if I desolder it and rewind it with thicker wire and 1-7 turns in a delta config I should get more kv? Question I have, the stator has 3 wires soldered to the plate, if I desolder them, looking at the original diagram from thread 1 I see 3 separate wires and three spliced wires, but mine only has 3 separate wires (ie. green red and blue in the original diagram). So (WAIT i THINK I GET IT). I rewire it completely different with the new wire? That seems to make sense. Please let me know, and what gauge copper wire should I use? It seems mrmota recommends 1-7 turns, is that correct? How many turns would you recommend? Thanks, this is my first time, but it's awesome, I feel like a kid! Thanks again. Henry.
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Old Dec 21, 2003, 10:59 PM
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Edmonds Wa. (Seattle)
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Hi
My best advice would be to go back to the first page of this thread and click on the link to the first post about this subject and read read read!
rcflyer2
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Old Dec 22, 2003, 12:23 AM
Why not Delta?
rysium's Avatar
Sacramento, CA
Joined Jun 2003
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Mitsumi model CRMC-FX001D

This is something I've seen the first time. This CD-ROM has very unusual motor. I would say Coreless

Obviously I can't rewind it (not at home) does anyone have an idea how to connect it to be able to run it? I'm just very curious how it will behave.

The rotor is a flat plate with flat magnetic ring. So it's not a bell, but ring running in front of the coils.
As you see on the picture it has 6 poles (3 are small and 3 are bigger) and the rotor has 8 poles (quite strong magnet). The motor weights about 20g but can be shaved a little.


The coils are 1.3mm high, and the thickness of the whole motor is 7mm.

Any suggestions?

RysiuM
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Old Dec 22, 2003, 01:15 AM
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Mr DIY's Avatar
South Africa
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rysium

Looking at your efficiency values, I did a quick calc. and come out at a very different value. The efficiency formula I use is

Prop dia to power of 4 --- multiplied by pitch --- multiplied by rpm to power of 3 --- multiplied by prop factor K. -- typical 1.11 (found via a link somewhere here)

All measurements in feet and RPM in thousands.

Thus

Diameter = 9 inch = 9/12 y/x of 4 = 0,316
Pitch = 4.7 = 4.7/12 = 0.3916
RPM = 4620 = 4.620 y/x of 3 = 98.61

Therefore efficiency = 0,316 x 0,3916 x 98.61 = 12.20 Watts to prop

K factor included (depending on prop) = 13.5 Watts to prop.

Efficiency therefore = 35%

Now have I got something wrong? If I have got it wrong, then my motor is looking awfully good for a CD-rom. So somebody please give me the real formula.
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Old Dec 22, 2003, 02:17 AM
Why not Delta?
rysium's Avatar
Sacramento, CA
Joined Jun 2003
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mr DIY
rysium

Diameter = 9 inch = 9/12 y/x of 4 = 0,316
Pitch = 4.7 = 4.7/12 = 0.3916
RPM = 4620 = 4.620 y/x of 3 = 98.61

Therefore efficiency = 0,316 x 0,3916 x 98.61 = 12.20 Watts to prop

K factor included (depending on prop) = 13.5 Watts to prop.

Efficiency therefore = 35%
I run your data through my calculator. Don't ask me what the formula is because I just don't remember. I did it a couple years ago base on HP Static Thtust calculator program (and it's formulas). Anyway, my result is power out =17.17W, static thrust = 6.72oz)

I checke alse the site :
http://www.andersonparkflyers.org/flight-calc.htm

And when I put yopur data through ThrustHP calculator (ver 2.0d) I got HP = 0.022 (16.4W) and static thrust = 0.44lb = 7.4oz

I don't know why they are off, but maybe different prop data were used.

I just printed formulas from ThrustHP calculator:

Formulas from AMA mag Oct 86

Load = Prop Diameter^4 * Pitch

Speed = Pitch * rpm * 0.000947

Horse Power = Load * rpm^3 / 1.4 * 10^17

Static Thrust = 0.00000000000283 * rpm^2 * Prop Diameter^4 * Air Density/29.92 * CF value

Prop data is in [inch], horse power = [745W], Static thrust is in [lb]


I hope this helps,

RysiuM
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Old Dec 22, 2003, 02:35 AM
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Chiba, Japan
Joined Jan 2002
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Re: Mitsumi model CRMC-FX001D

Quote:
Originally posted by rysium
This is something I've seen the first time. This CD-ROM has very unusual motor. I would say Coreless
Any suggestions?

RysiuM
That's very classic. Mitsumi double speed drive from '93, one of the first double speed bundled with SoundBlaster or Gateway PCs. It is even not IDE interfaced....

It should run as standard 3 phase DC BL motor. Of cource you should be able to connect coils to delta to have some more power. It reminds me the motor built in MicroFlight article. http://www.rcmicroflight.com/library/motor1.asp

Satoru
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Old Dec 22, 2003, 03:03 AM
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South Africa
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Thanx for your feedback rysium

Not sure exactly what you are saying, but using a K factor of 1.11, I still get the figure listed. Not sure how you get your 17 Watts. Ether way though, it a long way off the 26 Watt and 70% efficiency you had listed before.

The rest of the formula listed is certainly interesting though.
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