HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
This thread is privately moderated by Johnnymeg, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
Old Nov 04, 2012, 11:27 AM
JettPilot's Avatar
Miami
Joined Apr 2005
11,085 Posts
You guys are making this way to complicated... This has already been done with Dragon Link, and you guys can also do it ! If you keep the weight below 4.4 pounds it is legal in the USA, no special tracking or transponders required. THe regulatoins do not specify how the payload must fall, or glide... Or any combination of falling or gliding. My take on this, is the more you complicate things, the bigger risk of failure you have.

There are over 1000 balloon launches in the USA EACH DAY. One more does not present a danger to anyone...

Mike
JettPilot is online now Find More Posts by JettPilot
Site Sponsor
Last edited by JettPilot; Nov 04, 2012 at 11:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Nov 04, 2012, 11:38 AM
JettPilot's Avatar
Miami
Joined Apr 2005
11,085 Posts
As far as your choice of aircraft, I would NOT put a motor on it, just make it a glider. The extra weight and Drag of a motor will hurt your glide back far more than you can possibly fly with it.

THe weight of the motor and battery will also add so much weight it will reduce your burst altitude by a LOT. Which means you can not glide back as far...

Mike
JettPilot is online now Find More Posts by JettPilot
Site Sponsor
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 04, 2012, 11:39 AM
JettPilot's Avatar
Miami
Joined Apr 2005
11,085 Posts
Pictures from Dragon Link Balloon - Space flight in Southeast Asia
JettPilot is online now Find More Posts by JettPilot
Site Sponsor
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 04, 2012, 12:16 PM
Registered User
Missouri
Joined Aug 2004
142 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by JettPilot View Post
Pictures from Dragon Link Balloon - Space flight in Southeast Asia
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1623501
enuro12 is offline Find More Posts by enuro12
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 03:36 AM
FPV Dealer,Getting People High
Johnnymeg's Avatar
United States, CA, Arcadia
Joined Sep 2011
1,340 Posts
Thanks Mike for your input and support.

We are going to use the K.I.S. method, we will be trying to Keep It Simple. We have already decided to ditched the motor and be purely gliding. We are also ditching the use of diversity and antenna trackers. This thread was created to receive ideas, and help on our build. It was also created bring recognition for our mission and our sponsors. We appreciate all the ideas and will be taking them into consideration. It doesn't mean were going to apply everything as it will like you said complicate things.

I understand this has been done before. I originally got the Idea from the Dragon Osd thread where I saw the pictures. We are not trying to reinvent the wheel. We are collecting all the data that we found from the previous flights and putting our own spin on things. We are also going to implement some new technologies and devices. We have alot of support from our sponsors and guys Like Lee from crashtesthobby.com, Alex Creve(iBcrazy) and Tim from readymaderc.com But we are also implementing the RUBY device from Jim at uthere.com Jim is also introducing a complete ground control system that will have telemetry to monitor differnet components. Most of our main components we are acquiring and implementing are from developers right here in the USA. We also plan to have a video of the flight and to stream the video live to share with everyone. There will be alot of testing and research done befor the actual mission.

The main purpose of this mission is not to take credit for an idea that was completed before. Our purpose in attempting this mission is to promote creativity in the field of RC. I’m not sure what the background was for the guy’s that completed this mission in South East Asia and Germany. However, as far as the background is concerned for the members on our team, we do not have any specialized knowledge or training in this field. We are a couple of guys who were intrigued by an idea. All of the information we gather is done by spending countless hours researching and brainstorming. We take everyone’s opinion into consideration, and value the support and guidance we receive from others. We hope to inspire other RC enthusiasts, like ourselves, to create and invent new ideas to push the boundaries of RC and come up with other non-traditional uses for these planes while maintaining legal and safe boundaries. We are trying to demonstrate how anyone who has the ambition and drive can accomplish any goal they set their mind too.
Johnnymeg is offline Find More Posts by Johnnymeg
RCG Plus Member
Last edited by Johnnymeg; Nov 05, 2012 at 03:42 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 03:55 AM
FPV Dealer,Getting People High
Johnnymeg's Avatar
United States, CA, Arcadia
Joined Sep 2011
1,340 Posts
Team Legit

Here are videos of some fun we had today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TGg_...e_gdata_player

Aerial Shot of Model Rocket Launch at the Rose Bowl (0 min 21 sec)
Johnnymeg is offline Find More Posts by Johnnymeg
RCG Plus Member
Old Nov 05, 2012, 04:31 AM
Registered User
Great White North
Joined Dec 2005
750 Posts
Ya Mike it does!

You are quite right about most of what you said and yes there is roughly 700 weather balloon launches a day. But piloting an RC airplane/glider beyond visual range is at the minimum is now a grey area. and somewhat risky. US laws state,

101.7 Hazardous operations.

(a) No person may operate any moored balloon, kite, unmanned
rocket, or unmanned free balloon in a manner that creates a hazard
to other persons, or their property.

(b) No person operating any moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket,
or unmanned free balloon may allow an object to be dropped
therefrom, if such action creates a hazard to other persons or
their property.

and that does not matter WHAT the size is.

A typical radiosonde carried by the standard weather balloon weighs in at around 250grams or about 9 ounces that's a heck of a long ways from 2kg.

Secondly, I'm not sure what plane they have decided on but again, the are rules about that too,

Except as provided for in �101.7, any unmanned free balloon
that-

(i) Carries a payload package that weighs more than four pounds and
has a weight/size ratio of more than three ounces per square inch
on any surface of the package, determined by dividing the total
weight in ounces of the payload package by the area in square
inches of its smallest surface;

And thirdly,

101.5 Operations in prohibited or restricted areas.

No person may operate a moored balloon, kite, unmanned rocket, or
unmanned free balloon in a prohibited or restricted area unless he has
permission from the using or controlling agency, as appropriate.

So you may fly your balloon below 18,000 feet and above 60,000 feet with little worry. but the following applies to Class A airspace in the US. With some exceptions, Class A airspace is applied to all airspace between 18,000 feet (5,500 m) and Flight Level 600 (approximately 60,000 ft). Above FL600, the airspace reverts to Class E.[9] The transition altitude is also consistently 18,000 feet (5,500 m) everywhere. All operations in US Class A airspace must be conducted under IFR. SVFR flight in Class A airspace is prohibited. So flying anything into class A airspace under visual rules is prohibited. Hope you got a IFR ticket mike.

Yes people are flying balloons with gliders, airplanes an all sorts of other things mostly to some extent illegal. go through the proper channels with the proper equipment and your, in most case free to fly.

Saying that, if one takes the necessary precautions, and works with the authorities then your in a better place than not doing it. At the very minimum anyone flying that high needs a ADS-B on broad so that it can be tracked.

I'm not saying the above to be mean or turn you off the project, I'm saying it becuse someday, someone is going to do just what your doing with going through the proper considerations and either damage and or kill some on and then no one will be flying balloons.

Robert

Quote:
Originally Posted by JettPilot View Post
You guys are making this way to complicated... This has already been done with Dragon Link, and you guys can also do it ! If you keep the weight below 4.4 pounds it is legal in the USA, no special tracking or transponders required. THe regulatoins do not specify how the payload must fall, or glide... Or any combination of falling or gliding. My take on this, is the more you complicate things, the bigger risk of failure you have.

There are over 1000 balloon launches in the USA EACH DAY. One more does not present a danger to anyone...

Mike
qbert55ca is offline Find More Posts by qbert55ca
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 07:40 AM
Gaftopher
Gary Mortimer's Avatar
Nottingham Road South Africa/Bedford UK
Joined Feb 2007
3,980 Posts
BLOS flight is not allowed. Regardless of the weight.
Gary Mortimer is online now Find More Posts by Gary Mortimer
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 12:39 PM
FPV Dealer,Getting People High
Johnnymeg's Avatar
United States, CA, Arcadia
Joined Sep 2011
1,340 Posts
Yes we have read and completely understand the FAA rules and regulations and we have already contacted the nearest ATC and let them know of our intentions. Our aircraft will be the CrashTestHobby.com Hercules set up as a glider. Our total weight will be under 6 lbs. As per the FAA. The 4 lbs rule applies if there are multiple payloads. No where in the rules does it describe the method of decent. And as far as gliding back controlled is safer than a parachute falling on it's own. For the aspect of hazardous operation we have chosen to conduct our mission in the California desert away from populated areas. If you look at the attached picture in the first post this is an estimated trajectory based on wind and jet streams of that location calculated by the national weather service.

As stated earlier making sure this is a safe and legal project is our primary goal. The fun and knowledge we learn is secondary
Johnnymeg is offline Find More Posts by Johnnymeg
RCG Plus Member
Old Nov 05, 2012, 03:36 PM
Registered User
Bill0's Avatar
United States, CA, Oceanside
Joined Aug 2010
1,126 Posts
Johnny; you don't have to keep explaining your self or your mission. The doubting Thomas's and old clucking hens can go back to the start of tour thread and read what your going to do. if they don't like it, they can go else where with their gloom and doom.

onward and upward I say.......I'll be there
Bill0 is offline Find More Posts by Bill0
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 04:25 PM
Registered User
Great White North
Joined Dec 2005
750 Posts
In an attempt to debunk Gary's statement above I ran into some really bad news for your project.


SEC. 336. SPECIAL RULE FOR MODEL AIRCRAFT.

(a) In General.Notwithstanding any other provision of law relating to the incorporation of unmanned aircraft systems into Federal Aviation Administration plans and policies, including this subtitle, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration may not promulgate any rule or regulation regarding a model aircraft, or an aircraft being developed as a model aircraft, if

(1) the aircraft is flown strictly for hobby or recreational use;

(2) the aircraft is operated in accordance with a community-based set of safety guidelines and within the programming of a nationwide community-based organization;

(3) the aircraft is limited to not more than 55 pounds unless otherwise certified through a design, construction, inspection, flight test, and operational safety program administered by a community-based organization;

(4) the aircraft is operated in a manner that does not interfere with and gives way to any manned aircraft; and

(5) when flown within 5 miles of an airport, the operator of the aircraft provides the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport) with prior notice of the operation (model aircraft operators flying from a permanent location within 5 miles of an airport should establish a mutually-agreed upon operating procedure with the airport operator and the airport air traffic control tower (when an air traffic facility is located at the airport)).

(b) Statutory Construction.Nothing in this section shall be construed to limit the authority of the Administrator to pursue enforcement action against persons operating model aircraft who endanger the safety of the national airspace system.

(c) Model Aircraft Defined.In this section, the term ``model aircraft'' means an unmanned aircraft that is

(1) capable of sustained flight in the atmosphere;

(2) flown within visual line of sight of the person operating the aircraft; and

(3) flown for hobby or recreational purposes.



The VERY first thing you need to do, not for a balloon flight, but before dropping the plane/glider/UAV is get an FAA waiver and I doubt that will ever happen.


Robert

[QUOTE=As stated earlier making sure this is a safe and legal project is our primary goal. The fun and knowledge we learn is secondary [/QUOTE]
qbert55ca is offline Find More Posts by qbert55ca
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 04:55 PM
Dieselized User
gkamysz's Avatar
Chicagoland
Joined Feb 2000
7,418 Posts
So you're saying that once the airplane is dropped from the balloon, intentionally, it's not a model aircraft or UAV? Is ignorance the best defense in the worst case scenario?

There is an interesting difference in rules for unmanned aircraft and unmanned balloons, however.

The desert isn't exactly deserted.

Greg
gkamysz is offline Find More Posts by gkamysz
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 05:14 PM
Registered User
Great White North
Joined Dec 2005
750 Posts
Ya, the balloon is perfectly legal up to 6lbs, but the plane is absolutely illegal without a waiver.

Robert
qbert55ca is offline Find More Posts by qbert55ca
Last edited by qbert55ca; Nov 05, 2012 at 07:14 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 07:20 PM
Dieselized User
gkamysz's Avatar
Chicagoland
Joined Feb 2000
7,418 Posts
Sorry Robert, my post was in reply to post 69. I had it on the screen for a while before I posted it.

Greg
gkamysz is offline Find More Posts by gkamysz
Reply With Quote
Old Nov 05, 2012, 07:38 PM
FPV Dealer,Getting People High
Johnnymeg's Avatar
United States, CA, Arcadia
Joined Sep 2011
1,340 Posts
I put in a call and email today to the FAA balloons division. I waiting their reply.as far

As the desrt I chose we drove around that area.and also google maps for hours to find an open area that would be suitable for this mission.

Thanks Bill for the Encouragement.
Johnnymeg is offline Find More Posts by Johnnymeg
RCG Plus Member
Reply

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Fly-In 2012-2013 North Indianapolis Winter Indoor Fly-in Season - 16 Saturday Night Dates racin06 Electric Flight Events 28 Mar 09, 2013 03:47 PM
Discussion Dates for SEFF Week 2013 SEFF Trashman SEFF 2012 24 Feb 05, 2013 07:58 AM
Discussion Space Mission LIVE STREAM FPVer FPV Talk 22 Aug 17, 2012 06:05 PM
Discussion JR AeroTow 2013 dates are set for May 30 - June 2 SPasierb Sailplane Events 0 Jun 04, 2012 09:39 AM
China Launches Manned Space Mission Big Foot 48 Life, The Universe, and Politics 24 Oct 16, 2003 12:44 PM