|Oct 16, 2012, 03:43 AM|
I really doubt you'll run into trouble with the FAA on any part of this, they usually just kind of stay away unless of course you go out of their regulations and someone tips them off.
People must remember that there are actually no laws in the U.S. governing remote controlled aircraft that are flying for private use. Being privately owned and operated for noncommercial purposes also means that this will not count as a UAV (at least not for a few years) even if you add an autopilot system.
You definitely don't need a sense/avoid system, and you don't need a transponder on the plane, unless you're talking about for the balloon?
I'll be watching!
|Oct 16, 2012, 11:28 AM|
From what I have gatherd the FAA has set up a set of rules. We will abide by these rules and as long as our aircraft is under 6 lbs and has 2 or more cutaway systems we should be ok. there are a few other things they regulate but for this project we are within guidelines.
Here are the rules
We only apply to Subpart A, and Subpart D.
|Oct 16, 2012, 03:00 PM|
Great White North
Joined Dec 2005
Hi I'm Qbert from FPV Labs
Firstly, This has been done before by several different people in several different countries. It's nothing new.
Secondly, Getting up there is the easy part. Getting back in 1 piece is not.
Now with that said there is a third thing that you need to do to make this project work and that is to either A get a HAM licence, or B have someone with a HAM licence on the team. Without that you have little chance of succeeding while following all the rules. At the very minimum you will need a ADS-B which falls into the HAM realm of things. And NO Dragon OSD does not have RADAR ID, it has a simple video ID on whatever frequency you are using to satisfy some of the legalities of running a video transmitter. Which again you need a HAM licence to actually operate at anything above 10mw radiated power.
Expect the costs for the project to be several thousand dollars at a minimum,
Just a balloon and a tank of helium is $500.00 or more. Oh, By the way, Get some cheap balloons and practice filling them with a vacuum cleaner. At $150.00+ a pop for 2000g balloons you need to know what your doing. It's not hard to do, you just need to know how to do it.
Vehicle control is a major concern. Just having a RTH will not be enough for more many reasons. Gabon worked on his project over a winter and made an unsuccessful attempt the next spring and while we have had several low level successes, and just as many failures, under 35,000 feet we are still working on the final stages for our high altitude flights. Little planes like ours don't act like big ones way up there, or even like Fearless Felix. Being under 6 lbs, 4.5 lbs in our case, makes them vulnerable to winds and other weather that you and I rarely think of. Also, the spin that Felix went into, and then got out of several time is NOT uncommon and while the is spin was bad, it was nothing compared to what the original jumper had and what we have seen in out test data. Think about how you will control the spin of you plane exceeding 300 degrees and second. Ours can't even do that.
The electronics we are using is a full 2 way autopilot with IMU as well as a long range RC system. Additionally we have a Ham ADS-B as a backup in case we lose lock from the other two systems. Although we have a camera on board, without getting the licence to do long range video it's going to have to be just a record of the mission. (there is also a interference problem that we just can't seem to get rid of). There are systems that would do the job but the cost is prohibitive.
It's true that several have done this on a shoe string budgets with a few successes but more failures. All failures do is cost money, ask me I know.
Do it right the first time and you can avoid the 5 year trip to space and $20,000 dollars I've spent to get there.
That being said, I wish you luck in you endeavor and would be more that happy to answer any questions I am able to.
|Oct 17, 2012, 01:14 AM|
Thank you sooo much for jumping on board Robert, I feel with you around to help guide us through alot of your expierences will help. I think the first stage of my plan is build of the actual aircraft and extensive testing to be done. Climate and preasure testing, Range testing and Equipment selection and testing while keeping everything Legal.
We recently added a new team member he is a licenced ham radio operator, and I will also sign up to take a ham radio course and hopefully get licensed.
As far as the budget I am reaching out to sponsors to help with some of the costs, We are also accepting Donations the rest is fund raising and My pocket.
I have also sent emails and requests to a few Universities who launch weather balloons regularly in hopes I can tag along and learn things from them as far as the balloon launching goes.
I also reach out to other builders of this type like you and Gaben to help me navigate around the issues you expiernced and help me on the path of your succeses.
Will this project ever Be a Success ?? I have the ambition, and the sky is the limit(litteraly)
The funds and time will tell.
|Oct 17, 2012, 09:31 AM|
This is perfectly possible!
All tecnology exists today. We just need to buy it and integrate it.
Nothing much to invent.
If we drag to this foruns professionals in each subject they will take care of each subject fast.
|Oct 17, 2012, 06:18 PM|
Thats the approach I have. The biggest part of this is planning and testing. everything else can be fixed or bought.
|Oct 17, 2012, 10:33 PM|
I suggest that the tread starter to keep in 1st post the TO DO list for this mission and keep track of the achieved solution for each one, indicating the post were the answer is.
There could be defined 3 goals:
- RC model in orbit
- RC model in outer space
- RC model in lunar landing
I believe that after 1st goal is achieved the remaining 2 will be a piece of cake,because we should have thousands of followers wanting to participate and helping.
for the TO DO list I give the first kick of ideas:
Goal 1 - RC model in orbit
Balloon flying launch platform (BFLP)
- mechanical system for platform 6 axis stabilization
- gyro system for platform stabilization
- RC Link to BFLP
- model hold and release mechanism
- acquisition of weather balloons and its gas filling
- live RF Beacon and GPS tracking
- live video link
RC Link to Model
- define witch system can keep radio link active for goal 1
- define witch system can keep radio link active for goal 2
- define witch system can keep radio link active for goal 3
- define if it is possible to use just one RC link for goals 1, 2 and 3
Live Video link
- define witch system can keep video link active for goal 1
- define witch system can keep video link active for goal 2
- define witch system can keep video link active for goal 3
- define if it is possible to use just one RC link for goals 1, 2 and 3
- OSD overlay from telemetry data in video or telemetry readout in ground station
- integration of telemetry data in RC link or video link
- definition of sensor to be used
- selection of standard communication protocol
(this is just my 5min idea, if it is well accepted all participants can give their contribution and the moderator has the responsibility to keep in first post all relevant contributions updated)
The official flight approval from authorities is the least of my concerns, because this is not a commercial enterprise
If this project really goes to a real launch day there should be press coverage that will back it up and in this world there would be a country were laws for space flights are permissive.
I may be incorrect, but space is no mans or country property.
|Oct 18, 2012, 01:23 AM|
I like where your head is at. I actually will be doing a log of some sort. And after our first meeting on Wednesday with our team, we will start with a designations, what each person and bring to the project and ideas how to achieve differnt tasks. Hopefully our mission can enlighten other people begining to venture out into fpv or similar projects.
|Oct 18, 2012, 02:20 AM|
Guess who joined the team, that's right this guy "FLoHIO117" you know what that means riiiight! This shizz is going to happen!!!
|Oct 18, 2012, 04:58 AM|
I 'm also very reluctant in the possibility of losing my gear, because if it happens I do not have the budget to reinvest again...
This task cannot be done has a one man show...
It has to be a team effort were everybody can maintain their day jobs and have time to the family and of course achieve their goals in this wonderful hobby.
|Oct 18, 2012, 11:01 AM|
United States, NJ, Edison
Joined Mar 2008
You're looking at a tangential velocity of ~18,000mph for LEO.
Weather balloon flights are only "space" in the most arbitrary of terms.
That said, I think this project needs a good deal of thought with regards to high-altitude control. The air is thin, cold, and breezy. I don't expect the typical R/C aircraft to handle it. You'd need exaggerated wing area (U-2?) and maybe even reaction-control since your regular control surfaces will be hopeless.
Unless you just plan to fall for a while and then only fly the last 10% of the mission, but then, how is that more interesting than the usual parachute?
|Oct 18, 2012, 12:37 PM|
The balloon has the launch platform and from there it takes of a rocket or some other propulsion system to carry our model to orbit.
There we also have the advantage of lower gravitational force, so less energy required.
|Oct 18, 2012, 02:20 PM|
United States, NJ, Edison
Joined Mar 2008
You need 21,885 N*s impulse to push 6lb (2.72kg) to 18,000mph. This is 160+ "G" model rocket motors, which themselves weigh 42lb in total.
In short, if you think you are putting something in orbit on a shoe-string budget, then you really need to review the shear magnitude of the numbers involved.
But let's not forget, this thread is actually about putting a model into high-altitude flight, which is do-able if certain problems are solved, I think.
|Oct 18, 2012, 07:25 PM|
Joined Aug 2004
I'm hoping to do something similar so i'll be watching this close.
From raw stats alone the DragonLink system will make sure you've got control all the way up and down.
Take a look at some of the guys doing the weather balloon launches with SLR type cameras. Something you'll notice is their addition of stabilizers to keep the rig from spinning on the accent. Something to think about if you care about the resulting video.
Maybe ditch the PTZ cam & key chain for a single key chain with video out?
Another possibly great idea would be to get iBCrazy's input on this. With his fantastic engineering and cheap antenna arrays, trackers and diversity setup's he may be the budget saving brain keeping you in range with miles to spare.
To bad you're not near MO i'd be all over this project with my crazy ideas and money!
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