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Old Sep 28, 2012, 11:00 AM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
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Agree. They'll end up having to ditch the 70 mph, meaning their list of permissible flying conditions will be restricted to lower wind conditions. Lee, over in the EPP Tough thread in the beginner's section, is getting over an hour with his Storm Chaser with 9000mAh of battery. Their time goal is possible then if they are willing to give a bit on speed. Also check this post.

Now that plane is definitely not the clean aerodynamic shape of a flying wing. Lee is also a flying wing expert and would be a great contact for these guys.

I'm impressed. They made a realistic plan and worked it. They're showing good judgment in flying location and progressively gaining necessary skills. Had they been flying in a more populated area I might have some safety considerations, but there, the risk is to their equipment, not any bystanders.

They desperately need telemetry with GPS so they have exact longitude and latitude if a plane goes down. And they need to solve the brain confusion issue so they can give the plane instructions to loiter, RTB, navigate or land without fear that an interruption in signal could change that.

Then they need a powerful ally who knows where all the bodies are buried to obtain specific permission for a given flightpath across the US on certain dates. That could be a lot tougher than actually building and developing skills. But it could be easier than obtaining blanket permission to fly whenever and wherever they wish.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 11:42 AM
Rocket Programmer
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United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
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In 1980, I was involved with a cross country hike called HikeaNation which was sponsored by Postum (horrible stuff) and I hiked across Kansas for our leg of the event. My dad was the "pathfinder" for the state of Kansas - I'm still surprised at what he was able to pull off with 1980s technology. Here's a video... (these people were a little crazy, actually)

Hik-a-nation 1980 Postum Breakfast Cereal (6 min 22 sec)


It is not easy to plan a cross country trip, and I think it would be the hardest part of this project. Never mind the airplane specs, just finding a way to go across the country at that speed would be hard - so I think they need to go slower. You can not drive at 70mph all the way across this country, not legally anyway. So yeah, I think RR hit on the real problem here - that's it's gonna be near to impossible to plan and execute the flight path.

ALSO... I'm pretty sure this has been done before, I want to say it was in the 1970s... ???
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 11:48 AM
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United States, NY, Syracuse
Joined Oct 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyKunz View Post
Why do you think the AMA costs "hundreds" (assuming dollars)???

Hundreds of pennies, yes.

Andy
It was .58 hundreds for me last year IIRC.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:32 PM
Registered User
Lawrence, Kansas
Joined Dec 2001
588 Posts
C4H10 said:
"As for the goal of flying for 1.5 hours at 70mph under five pounds.... Let's see.

We're probably looking at a carefully custom-made airframe, so no off-the-shelf EasyStars, Zephyrs, or other popular FPV planes. If we assume that this plane will require, say, 300W into the motor in flight to maintain 70mph level, then we're looking at 450Wh of usable energy in the flight batteries. That's like eleven 5000mAh 3S packs once we factor in capacity usage limits and servo/equipment draws.

At this early stage, it looks like lipos would be out of the question. 55,000mAh is a LOT of lithium, and the cruise power would still be limited to those 300W. "

I think Butane hit the nail on the head. This is the classic tradeoff of speed vs. endurance that has plagued airplane designers since the Wrights. Even if these numbers are off by a factor of two (which seems highly unlikely), the batteries alone will probably weigh at least 5 lb. Doesn't look to me to be physically possible with LiPos.

- - Dave
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 01:36 PM
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Kentucky
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So, I take it my hydrogen powered proton exchange membrane fuel cells are just way over budget? I was not aware we had a budget.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 06:26 PM
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United States, AZ, Gilbert
Joined Nov 2009
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Its possible to make a plane that is capable of these goals, one just needs the means and the knowledge to be able to do it (and alot of time and money reserved for the failed prototypes ).

That being said, these guys will fail, I promise.

They do have the means, but obviously not the know how.
( Here are some examples of their boatloads of money and stupidity: having and Ardupilot v1, upgrading to a v2, getting a second v2 because they were too stupid to get the other one to work; buying a stupidly powerful vtx, buying a different one because that was way too powerful; getting external telemetry radios and not knowing how to use them; flying 2.4ghz from INSIDE a car; blacking out car windows; ect, ect, ect...).

They will never have the knowledge that they need to make this project reasonable.

My view is that they will never get it through their heads that the people throwing advice to them via forums and things might actually have good intentions and know more than them about a particular subject.

They are idiots, they will continue to fail, and I declare this a personal attack (not that they'll be here to defend themselves, they only use forums as promotional material anyway, unless of course they get tipped off).
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 06:33 PM
Wake up, feel pulse, be happy!
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United States, AK, Fairbanks
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Quote:
they will never have the knowledge that they need to make this project reasonable.
Never is a pretty long time, and technology just keeps rolling. How long ago was it that we would have said a total noob could "never" build and fly a successful electric plane? It's getting easier to do sans knowledge every day. At the same time, they're obviously up for experimentation, and a direct side effect of that is learning.

How many current FPV fliers started off having the knowledge needed to be successful?
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 06:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C₄H₁₀ View Post
How many current FPV fliers started off having the knowledge needed to be successful?
How many became successful by remaining ignorant?
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 08:51 PM
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United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
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Yeah, this will eventually be possible, but not with current technology. One of these days, any moron with enough money will be able to launch a micro-satellite into orbit from behind their trailer. But I don't think these guys will pull it off. I think it could be done with modified parameters, like slower speed or more weight - interesting complications with both options. With a big craft, you would need to avoid populated areas but you could fly faster, and with a light craft, you could maybe use highways here and there and have a more direct route. It would be wise, I think, to crowd-source some help too, that's why I brought up the HikeaNation and the state pathfinders. Cross country flights have been done though. Someone will find the link eventually... ?
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 09:23 PM
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This thread reminds me of that nutcase a while back, going on about hyper-toroidal flux exchangers and over-unity transformers. Quite the amusing thread, it took months to peter out. I'll bet he'd be able to ace this project...
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 09:35 PM
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Des Moines IA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rafe_b View Post
This thread reminds me of that nutcase a while back, going on about hyper-toroidal flux exchangers and over-unity transformers. Quite the amusing thread, it took months to peter out. I'll bet he'd be able to ace this project...
The treadmill lives
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 09:53 PM
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ohio
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the problems I believe that are going to stop this project dead cold are,

A-Heat, electric motors get hot fast when you are pushing them, and speed controls can not take heat that well.

B-Traffic James, they happen frequent ally and can last for over an hour. the plane would easily get out of range in that period of time.

C- FAA, this plane would not longer be considered a model airplane any would be classified as a drone and will be subject to drone rules and regulations. and current ally drones are not allowed in us airspace.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 09:57 PM
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Not to mention the negative impact something like this will have on the modeling community. we are already in hot water with the FAA regulations, when they find out about this we could be looking at even more issues with the government. Not to mention the severe safety hazard this will pose, along with the vary realistic possibility that this plane could go out of control and hit somebody and kill someone.
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Old Sep 28, 2012, 10:11 PM
Wake up, feel pulse, be happy!
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United States, AK, Fairbanks
Joined Aug 2009
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Quote:
A-Heat, electric motors get hot fast when you are pushing them, and speed controls can not take heat that well.
Who said any of the components had to be pushed? Simple answer: They don't. If we had the energy storage technology available, 70mph for 1.5 hours would be no big deal for the right motor and ESC.

Quote:
Not to mention the negative impact something like this will have on the modeling community. we are already in hot water with the FAA regulations, when they find out about this we could be looking at even more issues with the government. Not to mention the severe safety hazard this will pose, along with the vary realistic possibility that this plane could go out of control and hit somebody and kill someone.
See Posts #1 and #10.
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Old Sep 29, 2012, 08:00 AM
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Joined Jan 2009
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I agree, it's more of a drone than a model airplane. Technology is kind of unstoppable. That's why occasionally it needs to be regulated. Just because something is possible isn't reason enough to actually do it. (Think nuclear weapons.) Not that this is a new topic, read any novel by Kurt Vonnegut or Robert Pirsig.
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