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Old Nov 30, 2012, 12:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Israel has never frozen all construction work, in all the time Abbas has been the Palestinian president. Netanyahu knows full well that freezing all construction work in the settlements has been a long standing pre-condition for negotiations. By inviting the Palestinians for talks without freezing construction, then moaning when they don't show up, amounts to no more than political point scoring.

But if you insist that Israel did actually freeze all construction work, and not just say they did, feel free to provide the dates you would claim it was stopped between.

The right of return of the Palestinian refugees does not belong to any Palestinian leader to give away; it is for each individual refugee to decide for themselves whether they want to return or not. Same goes for recognising Israel as a Jewish state, since that implies the Palestinians have given up their right to return if Israel says their status as a Jewish state would be under threat.

Their intentions are very clear. They want a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, and for Israel to accept the right of return for all refugees. Even though this would amount to no more than Israel complying with UN resolutions passed against it and international law, equal rights for all people regardless of race or religion, it would also probably mean the end of Israel as Jewish state, should all the refugees decide to return.

This is why I think if Israel wants to maintain a Jewish majority and continue to have racist immigration laws, the sooner they begin to face up to their responsibility to the refugees, the better. Some young refugees might be persuaded to go and start a new life elsewhere for relatively small amounts of money, and larger families might be persuaded to give up their right to return in exchange for a home in an existing West Bank settlement, as Israel would have to abandon them in any case.

If Israel is forced to comply with the UN resolutions passed against it and international law, what proportion of Israelis do reckon would emigrate?

Dusty
http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyah...e-talks-1.3435

Why did'nt Abbas show up for negotiations?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 01:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Israel has never frozen all construction work, in all the time Abbas has been the Palestinian president. Netanyahu knows full well that freezing all construction work in the settlements has been a long standing pre-condition for negotiations. By inviting the Palestinians for talks without freezing construction, then moaning when they don't show up, amounts to no more than political point scoring.

But if you insist that Israel did actually freeze all construction work, and not just say they did, feel free to provide the dates you would claim it was stopped between.

The right of return of the Palestinian refugees does not belong to any Palestinian leader to give away; it is for each individual refugee to decide for themselves whether they want to return or not. Same goes for recognising Israel as a Jewish state, since that implies the Palestinians have given up their right to return if Israel says their status as a Jewish state would be under threat.

Their intentions are very clear. They want a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, and for Israel to accept the right of return for all refugees. Even though this would amount to no more than Israel complying with UN resolutions passed against it and international law, equal rights for all people regardless of race or religion, it would also probably mean the end of Israel as Jewish state, should all the refugees decide to return.

This is why I think if Israel wants to maintain a Jewish majority and continue to have racist immigration laws, the sooner they begin to face up to their responsibility to the refugees, the better. Some young refugees might be persuaded to go and start a new life elsewhere for relatively small amounts of money, and larger families might be persuaded to give up their right to return in exchange for a home in an existing West Bank settlement, as Israel would have to abandon them in any case.

If Israel is forced to comply with the UN resolutions passed against it and international law, what proportion of Israelis do reckon would emigrate?

Dusty
They were offered the 1967 boarders several times, they did not come to talk about it. They can have it, including a peaceful and cooperative co existence beside Israel. What they cannot have is the right of return, that will make Israel another Hamastan and change completely the character of the country.
I have suggested several times that within the framework of a peace agreement the refugees be offered a large amount of money to be split between the refugee and the country which will grant them citizenship, furthering the well being of the whole area.
However, what they will not get is the right of return, this is even my (and i am very left leaning in my politics) red line, and we do not mind living with the sword in hand defending our way of life, it is much better than living as Jews under Sharia law, as some Egyptians are about to find out.

Europe is already heavily infiltrated by Islam, and their position in this vote is motivated by internal politics. However, with time, when the Europeans will start to feel pushed out of their own countries (culturally and physically), they will change their stance. They should try to export their economic success to Moslim countries instead of importing poor Moslims into their countries.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 04:12 AM
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Originally Posted by S_YORAM1@BEZEQIN View Post
I have suggested several times that within the framework of a peace agreement the refugees be offered a large amount of money to be split between the refugee and the country which will grant them citizenship, furthering the well being of the whole area.
Realistically that's what the international community should be addressing if they are really interested in a solution.
The West Bank settlements do have to go though. It is difficult for anyone like myself to continue to support Israel whilst this practice continues.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:48 AM
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Originally Posted by mortato View Post
Realistically that's what the international community should be addressing if they are really interested in a solution.
The West Bank settlements do have to go though. It is difficult for anyone like myself to continue to support Israel whilst this practice continues.
I tend to agree with you, or at least offer the same areas in other places with a continuity of territory in the West Bank.
However, we are a long way from getting there, the Palestinians need to accept that Israel is not going anywhere, they need to unite instead of having 2 governments, one secular and one religious, and we need to accept that in framework of peace, we do not need the settlements.
But on both sides there are politicians, who when given the choice between a short, cheap and direct route to a goal, and a tortuous, expensive and bloody route to the same goal, they will always choose the latter.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Sure. Take a look at the Jewish population of other fundamentalist Islamic nations.
Most Jews who lived in Arab countries emigrated shortly after 1948, then most of those who remained emigrated or were expelled in 1967. 1948 was when Israel expelled most Palestinians, and 1967 was when Israel attacked it's neighbours, colonising more land, and expelling more Palestinians. You think the dates are a coincidence?

Was it not for Israel, there's no reason why significant populations of Jews wouldn't still be living in the various Arab countries. If Israel wasn't a majority Jewish state, it wouldn't be attacking it's neighbours, or expelling Palestinians. For what reason do you think a majority Muslim Israel would expel Jews?

Dusty
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by RCWorks View Post
The wanted nothing to do with that area until a jew put his foot on it.
Jews have continuously lived in Palestine since before records began.

The problem began with Zionism.

http://www.israeli-occupation.org/20...t-settlements/

Dusty
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Jews have a few issues too, including land and a country that was stolen from them, followed by two centuries of nations across Europe who repeated stole everything they had, who never welcomed them, and who massacred them.

Whatever 'enlightenment' you may believe the world has achieved, and however you fantasize that Jews are now loved and embraced on this planet to the degree that they don't need a country of their own (where it once was), such conditions are not guaranteed.

If you have a solution to give back to the Jews everything that was taken from them over the last two millennium, and if you have a way to restore the millions of souls that were "wiped from the face of the earth", I'd like to hear it, and then, maybe then, you might be able to convince me that Jews don't belong in Israel.

The land was stolen from Jews by Europeans, Jews were treated as rats by Europeans for 2,000 years, and millions of Jews were murdered by Europeans.
So because Europeans did all that, Palestinians should hand the land they live on over to Jews?

Besides, there are no records showing that Jews were expelled from anywhere in Palestine/Israel except Jerusalem, nor are there any records showing that many of them didn't just move to other parts of Palestine, then subsequently converted to Christianity and/or Islam. But genetic studies certainly suggest that's exactly what did happen.

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In recent years, many genetic studies have demonstrated that, at least paternally, most of the various Jewish ethnic divisions and the Palestinians and in some cases other Levantines are genetically closer to each other than the Palestinians or European Jews to non-Jewish Europeans.[104]
One DNA study by Nebel found genetic evidence in support of historical records that "part, or perhaps the majority" of Muslim Palestinians descend from "local inhabitants, mainly Christians and Jews, who had converted after the Islamic conquest in the seventh century AD".[104] They also found substantial genetic overlap between Muslim Palestinians and Ashkenazi and Sephardic Jews, though with some significant differences that might be explainable by the geographical isolation of the Jews and by immigration of Arab tribes in the first millennium.[104]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...enetic_studies
If a Jew converts to Christianity or Islam, why should someone who has just converted to Judaism have a right to take his land? Just because he might be persecuted for being a Jew? Is that the logic behind it?

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It's no wonder Jews finally decided to go home.

The Palestinians deserve their due, and their own state; in all fairness, they lived their too
, but your non-stop whining about "stealing land" is simply anti-Israel propaganda.
Taking what does not belong to you then refusing to give it back, is what most people call stealing. But when you believe the land belongs to you in the first place, then I understand how you would disagree, since you cannot steal what is already yours. I can also understand that you would think Muslim and Christian Palestinians are mistaken in thinking the land belongs to them, and that they should recognise it belongs to Jews. And if they disagree, or put up any sort of resistance when they are forced to move, then they are in the wrong, since they cannot defend what doesn't belong to them. They might think they are defending their land, but you believe they are attacking your land. They are the aggressor, and you are being forced to defend yourself.

But you should understand that from a perspective of not believing the land belongs Jews in the first place, stealing land is what Israel does. Israel is the aggressor, and the Palestinians are being forced to defend themselves.

Perhaps the Palestinian refugees also think it's about time they went home.

Dusty
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
For what reason do you think a majority Muslim Israel would expel Jews?

Dusty


If they expelled Jews because of the actions of a foreign government, then antisemitism is the reason.


Muslim Iran (which happens to be strongly anti-Zionist) continues to be proud of the fact that they have a Jewish population.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Jews have continuously lived in Palestine since before records began.

The problem began with Zionism.


Dusty
Jews have not lived in Palestine since before records begin.

Zionism is thousands of years old.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by S_YORAM1@BEZEQIN View Post
http://www.haaretz.com/news/netanyah...e-talks-1.3435

Why did'nt Abbas show up for negotiations?
Come on, what did you just highlight in my post?

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Originally posted by Me:
But if you insist that Israel did actually freeze all construction work, and not just say they did, feel free to provide the dates you would claim it was stopped between.
And what have you provided. Netanyahu just saying he was going to. Did you even read the article, and notice the long list of construction projects that he was planning to continue?

If construction stopped for 10 months beginning at the end of 2009, then why, 4 months later, did the ''Quartet'' call for a settlement freeze?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/8575723.stm

Like I said, freezing all construction at the settlements has been a long standing pre-condition of the Palestinians. The reason the so-called peace negotiations have not continued, is because Israel has not frozen settlement construction. Is that clear now?

Dusty
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
If they expelled Jews because of the actions of a foreign government, then antisemitism is the reason.
No, the actions of the foreign government was the reason.

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Muslim Iran (which happens to be strongly anti-Zionist) continues to be proud of the fact that they have a Jewish population.
Indeed, I am aware that the largest population of Jews in the middle east outside of Israel, live in Iran.

Dusty
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
1. So because Europeans did all that, Palestinians should hand the land they live on over to Jews?

2. If a Jew converts to Christianity or Islam, why should someone who has just converted to Judaism have a right to take his land? Just because he might be persecuted for being a Jew? Is that the logic behind it?

3. Taking what does not belong to you then refusing to give it back, is what most people call stealing. But when you believe the land belongs to you in the first place, then I understand how you would disagree, since you cannot steal what is already yours.

4. I can also understand that you would think Muslim and Christian Palestinians are mistaken in thinking the land belongs to them, ...

5. But you should understand that from a perspective of not believing the land belongs Jews in the first place, stealing land is what Israel does. Israel is the aggressor, and the Palestinians are being forced to defend themselves.


Dusty
1. No. It is simply an explanation as to why Israel is a safer place for a Jew to live than in Europe.

2. I'm sorry if there's no logic in something I didn't say.

3. I'm happy you understand something even if you don't agree with it.

4. I didn't say I think that.

5. From another perspective, I understand the charge of stealing, however, that is not my perspective.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Jews have no lived in Palestine since before records begin.
What years would you claim no Jews lived in Israel/Palestine?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogra...Ottoman_period

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Zionism is thousands of years old.
I am referring to the modern Zionist organisation, which began near the end of the 1800s.

Dusty
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
1. No, the actions of the foreign government was the reason.

2. Indeed, I am aware that the largest population of Jews in the middle east outside of Israel, live in Iran.

Dusty
1. It doesn't matter, the action they took was on Jews. It was Jews they expelled; not Israelis nor Zionists. Those Jews were no threat to those countries. It was antisemitism.

2. You can thank the Arab countries for that.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
What years would you claim no Jews lived in Israel/Palestine?

I am referring to the modern Zionist organisation, which began near the end of the 1800s.

Dusty
Prior to about 3,500 years ago.

I am affiliated with a modern-orthodox Jewish community.
Had I lived 1,000 years ago, I assume I would also have been associated with a modern-orthodox Jewish community. Modern is relative. Zionism is not.
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