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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:24 AM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Go back and check.

Learn how Arafat dealt with his competition.
Which individuals are you referring to, and were any of them involved in any negotiations with Israel?

Dusty
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:33 AM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
It also in no way takes into account anything before the 19th century.
It did say something about the time prior to Zionist immigration to Palestine.

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It also in no way accounts for Jews that moved into uninhabited areas. (Tel Aviv, Israel's biggest city, was nothing but sand before Jews established it.)
It was partly built on Palestinian villages, which Israel has mostly wiped off the map.

http://zochrot.org/en/content/about-...inian-villages

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It also doesn't explain why wars broke out.

It also doesn't explain why Jews were prohibited from holy sites in Jerusalem after 1948.

It also doesn't consider the 700,000 to 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab countries.
That was all Israel's fault.

Quote:
It also lies regarding the massacre of thousands of Palestinians.
It's a reasonably accurate and fair description of what happened. Perhaps it takes into account the numbers killed before the official start of the 1948 war. For example:

Quote:
According to Ilan Pappe, by January 1948, 400 Jewish settlers had been killed while attempting to maintain contact with isolated Zionist settlements established "in the heart of Palestinian [Arab] areas", while 1500 Arabs had been killed in the "random bombardments and shellings of their villages and neighbourhoods".[12] According to Yoav Gelber, by the end of March, there was a total of 2,000 dead and 4,000 wounded.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1947%E2...s_in_Palestine
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post

That was all Israel's fault.
I'm well aware of your position.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 12:01 PM
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A female CNN journalist heard about a very old Jewish man who had been going to the Western Wall to pray, twice a day, every day, for a long, long time.

So she went to check it out. She went to the Western Wall and there he was, walking slowly up to the holy site.

She watched him pray and after about 45 minutes, when he turned to leave, using a cane and moving very slowly, she approached him for an interview.

"Pardon me, sir, I'm Rebecca Smith from CNN. What's your name?

"Morris Feinberg," he replied.

"Sir, how long have you been coming to the Western Wall and praying?"

"For about 60 years."

"60 years! That's amazing! What do you pray for?"

"I pray for peace between the Christians, Jews and the Muslims."

"I pray for all the wars and all the hatred to stop."

"I pray for all our children to grow up safely as responsible adults and to love their fellow man."

"I pray that politicians tell us the truth and put the interests of the people ahead of their own interests."

The Journalist then asked: "How do you feel after doing this for 60 years?"

"Like I'm talking to a f*****g wall."
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
How did Jordan deal with the many thousands of Palestinians that were causing the kingdom trouble?

Did they expel them?

No.

They killed them.
Where's the intifada against Jordan, with most of the "Palestinians" and nearly all of 'their' land?

Oh, that's right, no Jews.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 02:59 PM
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Dusty, can you tell me why:
- When the Israeli government froze any construction work in the West Bank, responding to a pre condition by Abbas for negotiation, the Palestinians did not show up?
- when Nethanyahu openly and publicly accepted the concept of Two States for Two Peoples and called the Palestinians for negotiations, nobody showed up.
- When Barak offered Arafat all what he wanted, including East Jerusalem, but not the right of return, Arafat refused.

Add these to the Hamas behavior, and you will understand that the feeling in Israel is that the Palestinians will not settle for less than the destruction of Israel as a Jewish state. Add to this the fact that they have refused to recognize Israel as a Jewish State, and it will clarify their intentions even more.
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Old Nov 28, 2012, 05:33 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Palestinians win more European support for limited statehood

Switzerland, Denmark, Austria, and Spain will join France in backing Palestinian upgrade at UN; Britain seeking assurances from Palestinians; Germany will oppose move.
It seems Germany is the only European country so far to oppose the bid outright. They probably still feel a sense of national guilt over the holocaust.

The Scottish government supports the Palestinians.

Quote:
External Affairs Minister Humza Yousaf


Quote:
has today written to the UK Government, urging them to support Palestine’s bid for enhanced UN status.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...stine-28112012

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Old Nov 28, 2012, 08:13 PM
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I'd say a sterling record of simultaneously allowing continual attacks on any and all Israelis while convincing a number of westerners that they're in need of enhanced status means they already have it.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 08:40 AM
Scotland the Brave
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Israel pulls back from threat to topple Palestinian leadership over UN vote

The Palestinian observer at the UN, Riyad Mansour, told reporters that the PA would neither immediately sign up for the ICC nor renounce its right to do so.

...

But Mansour said that if Israel continued to violate international law, in particular by continuing Jewish settlement construction in the occupied territories, then the Palestinians would have to consider "what should we do next to bring Israel into compliance?"

Quote:
Clinton warns Netanyahu not to punish Palestinian Authority for UN bid

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton warned Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu during her talks in Israel this week not to take any extreme actions in response to the Palestinian move in the United Nations for recognition as a non-member state.
Well done USA.

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Old Nov 29, 2012, 01:44 PM
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Am I right in thinking that if Palestine becomes a sovereign state , recognised by the UN, then if they continue to fire rockets into Israel then these actions would be seen as an act of war and would justify the IDF to really go to town
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 02:15 PM
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Germany backtracks on Palestinian bid; Israeli official: 'We lost Europe'

Every European country will now either vote in support of the Palestinians or abstain.

Quote:
In opposing the resolution, Israel is likely to find itself isolated with the United States, Canada, Micronesia, the Marshall Islands and possibly the Czech Republic – although sources at the Foreign Ministry said Germany's decision would likely affect the Czech vote as well.


Quote:
Palestinian warring factions unite ahead of historic UN vote

Thousands of Palestinians took to the streets throughout the West Bank and Gaza today to celebrate what they expect to be a United Nations General Assembly vote upgrading the PLO’s status from that of observer to that of non-member state.



Also, Hezbollah has warned Israel not to attack Lebanon.

Quote:
Hezbollah leader Sayyed Hassan Nasrallah warned Israel on Sunday that thousands of rockets would rain down on Tel Aviv and cities across the country if it attacked Lebanon.

Speaking four days after the cease-fire which ended a week of conflict between Israel and the Islamist Hamas rulers of Gaza, Nasrallah said Hezbollah's response to any attack would dwarf the rocket fire launched from Palestinian territories.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...banon-1.480431
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 02:21 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by gordynic View Post
Am I right in thinking that if Palestine becomes a sovereign state , recognised by the UN, then if they continue to fire rockets into Israel then these actions would be seen as an act of war and would justify the IDF to really go to town
As it is, the Palestinians are an occupied people. So Israel as the occupier has an obligation to withdraw, while the Palestinians have a legitimate right to resist the occupation, including by armed means, to restore to themselves the right to self-determination.

Being a non-member state, Palestine will be an occupied state, Israel will still have an obligation to end their occupation of the Palestinian state, and the Palestinians will still have a legitimate right to defend their state, including by armed means.

If they were a full member state, which was what they attempted a year ago, they would also have a right to call on other UN member states, to send armed forces to assist them to eject Israel from their country.

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Old Nov 29, 2012, 02:28 PM
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The resolution of the General Assembly will not change anything on the ground. Israel and the Palestinians will eventually negotiate between themselves and reach an agreement, or no, regardless of what is being decided in New York. This is a big PR and propaganda show with no real value.

And I am happy to see that Hezbollah, a terror organisation, and Nasrallah, have found a new mouthpiece in RCGroups. As long as he stays hidden in his bunker, as he has done for the last years,keeps on talking and does not attack Israel, he has nothing to fear.

BTW Dusty, I am still waiting for you to address the questions from a few posts above, if you have answers.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 02:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
As it is, the Palestinians are an occupied people. So Israel as the occupier has an obligation to withdraw, while the Palestinians have a legitimate right to resist the occupation, including by armed means, to restore to themselves the right to self-determination.

Being a non-member state, Palestine will be an occupied state, Israel will still have an obligation to end their occupation of the Palestinian state, and the Palestinians will still have a legitimate right to defend their state, including by armed means.

If they were a full member state, which was what they attempted a year ago, they would also have a right to call on other UN member states, to send armed forces to assist them to eject Israel from their country.

Dusty
By the same token, Israel has the right to defend itself by armed means, and as a full member state to call on other UN members to assist it, in case of attacks like the one from Gaza, which Israel does not occupy.
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Old Nov 29, 2012, 02:54 PM
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Interestingly enough, the country chosen to sponsor the Palestinians bid is Sudan, known for its law abiding behavior and for its "wanted" head of state.
It takes one to know one.
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