Germany says no.

Originally Posted by Tim Jonas

Germany says no.

Good for them. The latest actions in Gaza didn't help at all.

Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492

Good for them. The latest actions in Gaza didn't help at all.

Well, it actually might have helped.

Those governments wanting to bolster Abbas' popularity, as compared to Hamas, might be supporting his initiative, in order to show that he can do more for the Palestinians peacefully than Hamas can do through "struggle".

Personally, I don't think the Palestinians have really thought this through. I still think real (measurable and pragmatic) success for the Palestinians will come through negotiations and a deal with Israel.

France Endorses Palestinian UN Bid, Britain Offers Conditional Backing

French Foreign Minister Laurent Fabius has confirmed today that France will vote in favor of upgrading Palestine to “non-member observer state” status at the UN General Assembly, a vote expected later this week.

The vote is a foregone conclusion, but it's good to see at least some support from European countries. The more countries which take steps towards Israel eventually having to comply with international law, the sooner there is likely to be peace in the middle east.

Dusty

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

The vote is a foregone conclusion, but it's good to see at least some support from European countries. The more countries which take steps towards Israel eventually having to comply with international law, the sooner there is likely to be peace in the middle east.

Dusty

No reaction to the news coming out of Germany regarding this?

Originally Posted by Tim Jonas

No reaction to the news coming out of Germany regarding this?

Reaction from who?

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

Reaction from who?

You. No opinion Germany's decision?

Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto

Well, it actually might have helped.

Those governments wanting to bolster Abbas' popularity, as compared to Hamas, might be supporting his initiative, in order to show that he can do more for the Palestinians peacefully than Hamas can do through "struggle".

Personally, I don't think the Palestinians have really thought this through. I still think real (measurable and pragmatic) success for the Palestinians will come through negotiations and a deal with Israel.

Yep. If they would remain peaceful and negotiate in good faith I think they would get almost everything they want.

Originally Posted by Tim Jonas

You. No opinion Germany's decision?

It's disappointing.

Originally Posted by RumRunner_1492

Yep. If they would remain peaceful and negotiate in good faith I think they would get almost everything they want.

Are you kidding? You think Israel is going to agree to almost abide by international law and dismantle almost all it's settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, through negotiations with the Palestinians?

Dusty

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

It's disappointing.

Understood. By the way, I didn't ask the question pejoratively, or with malice aforethought. I genuinely look to you and Michael in these debates to provide cogent and salient viewpoints.

Frankly, I find these threads infinitely more interesting than most others on the forum. Except for the ones I start, mind you....

I would like somebody to explain to me why pre- 1967 there where no calls to Jordan which occupied the West Bank, and to Egypt which occupied Gaza, for a Palestinian state...

One thing's for sure, European governments' positions on Israel/Palestine are decidedly more pro-Israel, than the consensus of the electorates they are supposed to represent.

According to the 2012 BBC World Service public opinion poll, the percentages of the public who have positive views on Israel in the following countries are:

USA: 50%
France: 20%
UK: 16%
Germany: 16%
Spain: 12%

http://www.globescan.com/images/imag...l%20080512.pdf

It would seem the closer to Israel a country is, the less favourably the population is likely to view it.

Here's a good article:

Why Americans Don't Understand Palestine

Originally Posted by Up&Away

I would like somebody to explain to me why pre- 1967 there where no calls to Jordan which occupied the West Bank, and to Egypt which occupied Gaza, for a Palestinian state...

My guess is, at that time, as most Palestinians were a population who had been expelled from, or not allowed to return to their homes in what became Israel, and most Israelis would have been immigrants, the Palestinian state they wanted would have included Israel.

Nowadays, as most Palestinians have never set foot in Israel, and most Israelis were born in Israel, Palestinians are prepared to accept a state in the West Bank including East Jerusalem, and Gaza, which seems very generous indeed. But not generous enough for greedy Israel.

Dusty

Originally Posted by Dusty1000

Are you kidding? You think Israel is going to agree to almost abide by international law and dismantle almost all it's settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem, through negotiations with the Palestinians?

Dusty

In a peaceful situation with someone negotiating in good faith I think they will come a long way.