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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post

No, greedy Israel.

Dusty
Those greedy Israelis and their damn determination to exist.

Greedy, greedy, greedy!
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
So would I. That's why I suggested supporting women's rights organisations in such countries, instead of invading them.

I'm not sure why you think I think differently.

Dusty
I nominate you to go to Gaza and educate these people about women's rights, and advocate enshrining these rights in their laws.

I'll go to Israel, and stand on a platform in the middle of Tel Aviv and shout all day long that Israel is greedy and must accommodate the Palestinian needs.

Then we can meet for supper and discuss how are days went, ...


... or maybe we won't; Maybe I'll visit you in an Israeli hospital if you're fortunate enough to be breathing.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
I nominate you to go to Gaza and educate these people about women's rights, and advocate enshrining these rights in their laws.
Ha!

Don't forget the GLAAD folks either.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was one of the ''fertilisers'' for the Nazi movement. Are you able to support your claim that ''most Russians'' believe it? Many Russians may well believe it, just as many Americans believe Muslims are planning to take over the world, and that jihadwatch.com and relgionofpeace.com accurately describe Islam. Some people think the Rothschilds rule the world, while others think it's aliens. Some think it's the British Royal Family, including one here on LTUP. Some people think President Obama is a communist, who plans to ruin the US, including some here on LTUP. People believe all sorts of conspiracy theories, but beliefs such as these will always be on the fringes of modern societies, even if they are more prevalent in some countries than in others.

Hitler was brought up as a catholic and made many references to ''doing God's work'' as he saw it, and blamed Jews for the demise of what he perceived to be ''Christian values'' in Germany. The catholic church didn't take the official position that Jews today should not be held responsible for killing Christ until the 1960s, and most Europeans in the 1930s were decidedly more Christian than they are nowadays. In the 1930s the UK still had an empire which was originally colonised by the biggest navy in the world, which was originally financed by N.M. Rothschild and Son, after the same bank financed the British victory over Napoleon, then bailed out the Bank of England. So I very much doubt the Protocols of the Elders of Zion by itself, would have been a significant factor, without being able to point the finger at some actual ''international Jewish financiers,'' who could be said to be responsible for wars and ruling the world etc. But the world is a changed place. There is no British empire, there is no dominant bank nowadays like there was in the early 1800s, and most bankers are not Jewish like they used to be. So without any individuals to even point the finger at, such conspiracy theories are unlikely to be believed by informed people, and people these days are becoming increasingly informed.

Is the Protocols of the Elder's of Zion the main thing you think might cause widespread anti-semitism in the future?



But we are all members of nation states, many of which define themselves by the religious beliefs of the majority of their populations. That's reality, and is likely to remain so for some time to come. In the final analysis, there is only one race.



I had never heard of it. People do exist in groups and imagine they have things in common, such as race and religion, just as they always have done. Nation states are the modern day equivalent of tribes. As both racism and religion are on the decline, and the barriers for nation states are coming down, if we continue on this path then one day there will be no racism, no religion, and no nation states, and the world will probably be better off for it.



Like I said, mass population transfers are the policies of only the extremists these days, such as Islamic Jihad and Avidgor Lieberman. There's no point in trying to paint the more moderate parties with your broad brush. Ever since Hamas was elected, it has been their position that they would accept a Palestinian state based on the 1967 borders, in compliance with international law and international consensus. While Israel with Netanyahu at the helm has moved in the opposite direction, by expelling more and more Palestinians from their homes, building more and more settlements in further violation of international law, which causes more and more violent resistance from the Palestinians.

Only when Israel obeys international law, will peace be possible. And not until then!



Don't you think the US, UK and Canada are far safer refuges, than a tiny country in the middle east?

As has been suggested on this forum before, somewhere along the US/Canadian border would be a far safer place for a Jewish state, and one the size of Israel would only take up a tiny fraction of the total land mass of the US and Canada.

Dusty
Why should (would?) people born in Israel or Russia want to move anywhere? The Sabras would freeze, and the Russian Jews probably have had more than enough cold in their lives!

Why should THEY leave, while the Palestinians that aren't there should go there? The fact that you seem to think so speaks volumes.

BTW, thousands of Israelis have already emigrated to the US, UK and Canada. They made that choice freely; obviously the others have made a different choice.

Keep in mind there have always been some Jews in what is now Israel. Where should their descendants go?
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:14 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by mortato View Post
Our society (western democracy)is better than any theocracy. And demonstrably so. And I think you agree as you say you hope that Islamic theocracies are heading towards western style democracies.
I hope so, but it would seem that ''western style'' democracies are not what most people in most Muslim societies in the middle east want, at this moment in time. Just as I expect folk in the middle east to respect our right to choose our own form of government, I respect their right to do the same.

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How can you respect people who are bullying others? I don't respect them at all.
Does this mean you don't respect Israel at all, because it bullies Palestinians in the occupied West Bank out of their homes to make way for Jewish settlers?

I respect things countries do that I agree with, and condemn things the same countries do which I don't agree with. For example, I respect Iran for not having attacked another country except in self defence for hundreds of years, while I condemn the lack of rights of Iranian citizens, particularly women. I respect Israel for it's citizens, women in particular, having more rights than any other country in the middle east, while condemning it's treatment of the Palestinians in the occupied territories.

Here is the Global Gender Gap index. At which number do your draw your line on which countries to respect, and which to not respect at all?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_...Index_rankings

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How would you give money to Saudi women?
Electronic bank transfer would probably be the easiest way to give money to women's rights organisations.

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What makes you think that my only solution is invasion?
I don't. Do you think invasion is a solution?

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:15 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Yes.

The question is why you choose to ignore every reason except one to further your argument.
Which reasons do you think I am ignoring?
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:19 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
It seems Avigdor Lieberman is a new and popular target for you to vilify.

Avigdor Lieberman is a politician.

He is powerless to act like the criminals you compare him to.
Netanyahu is not a dictator, and other Israeli politicians have influence over what he does. Lieberman is an increasingly powerful Israeli politician, and Israeli politicians have far more power using their modern well equipped army, than Islamic Jihad have using their short-range innacurate missiles.

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:19 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by S_YORAM1@BEZEQIN View Post
Which does of course mean that you would support your rights as man denied, as long as there is a majority, including at least one man and all the women.
Or the Palestinians right as long as there is a majority which includes one Palestinian.
I'm not sure what you're saying. Could you rephrase that?

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:23 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Bob HSG View Post
I wonder how educated Palestinian women currently living in Israel would feel about becoming subject to Sharia.
Probably much the same as educated Palestinian men currently living in Israel.

Arab Women As Likely As Men To Support Islamic Law In Middle East After Arab Spring, Says Survey
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:25 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Those greedy Israelis and their damn determination to exist.
...in Palestine!

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Greedy, greedy, greedy!
Just as citizens of a Palestinian state would be greedy if they were determined to exist in their state inside Israel, bulldozing Israeli homes to make way for Muslim and Christian settlers.

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bob HSG View Post
Why should (would?) people born in Israel or Russia want to move anywhere? The Sabras would freeze, and the Russian Jews probably have had more than enough cold in their lives!
Jews emigrate to Israel to escape anti-semitism and to live in a Jewish state, which is supposed to be a refuge for Jews should there ever be anything like another holocaust. Some move because they want to live where their religion and/or customs are prevalent. People move for all sorts of reasons, including Jews.

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Why should THEY leave, while the Palestinians that aren't there should go there? The fact that you seem to think so speaks volumes.
I am not suggesting they should leave. My longstanding position is that Israel should exist within it's legal and internationally recognised borders. It is that fact that you think Israel should have the right to exist in Palestine, that speaks volumes. You are forever addressing what you would like me to have said, rather than what I actually said. It is your posts which have double standards, not mine.

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BTW, thousands of Israelis have already emigrated to the US, UK and Canada. They made that choice freely; obviously the others have made a different choice.
And having another Jewish state on the border of the US and Canada would give them another choice. Do you disagree with the concept of Jews having another choice, of another safe refuge?

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Keep in mind there have always been some Jews in what is now Israel. Where should their descendants go?
They can stay in Israel as far as I'm concerned. Those who live in Palestine should apply to immigrate to the Palestinian state if they want to remain there.

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 01:06 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Hamas complains to Egypt after Israeli army kills Gazan

A smaller Palestinian group, Islamic Jihad, was more threatening than Hamas, saying in a statement that "continued and so flagrant (Israeli) violations would put the calm at risk and push resistance factions to respond in a way they deem suitable".
Israel's response to the UN vote so far:

Quote:
The US has criticised Israel's decision to authorise the construction of 3,000 more housing units in occupied East Jerusalem and the West Bank.

Secretary of State Hillary Clinton said that "these activities set back the cause of a negotiated peace".

Hillary Clinton warns Israel on settler homes
Quote:
Israel withholds Palestinian funds after U.N. vote

...it collects about $100 million a month in duties on behalf of the authority.

But, Israeli officials said, the authority owes about $200 million to the Israel Electric Corporation, and that money will now be deducted from the tax transfers.
Well they did say the Palestinian celebration would be ''short lived.''

Imagine the riots Greece or any other country would have had if their government was to have no money for two months, no public sector workers being paid etc. Third intifada?

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Dusty1000 View Post
Which reasons do you think I am ignoring?
Paraphrased from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisem...the_Arab_world


Antisemitism in the Arab world has increased greatly in modern times, for many reasons other than resentment over Jewish nationalism:

1. the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire and traditional Islamic society;

2. European influence, brought about by Western imperialism and Christian Arabs;

3. Nazi propaganda;

4. the rise of Arab nationalism;

5. The rise of political Islam during the 1980s and afterwards provided a new mutation of Islamic anti-Semitism, which gave the hatred of Jews a religious component.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 01:32 PM
Scotland the Brave
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Originally Posted by Michael in Toronto View Post
Paraphrased from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antisem...the_Arab_world


Antisemitism in the Arab world has increased greatly in modern times, for many reasons other than resentment over Jewish nationalism:

1. the breakdown of the Ottoman Empire and traditional Islamic society;

2. European influence, brought about by Western imperialism and Christian Arabs;

3. Nazi propaganda;

4. the rise of Arab nationalism;

5. The rise of political Islam during the 1980s and afterwards provided a new mutation of Islamic anti-Semitism, which gave the hatred of Jews a religious component.
Apart from the Nazis, I don't see why any of the above would have caused anti-semitism any more than anti-Christianism. We know Israel doesn't generally discriminate between Muslims and Christians. Apart from two references to the Nazis, and one in Lebanon to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion, for every actual example of anti-semitism in the 20th century in your article, Israel seems to have been the basis.

Dusty
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 01:53 PM
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Hey! There seems to have been another Jewish State already in existence - Israel is not the first!:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Autonomous_Oblast

So, just as the Israelis want there to be a "Palestine" in Jordan, why not another Israel in this oblast, and ship all the Israelis there instead?
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