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Old Sep 26, 2012, 03:06 PM
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If cost is everything, I wonder how many are driving the least expensive ICE available today?

Anyone still driving a Yugo?
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Beckler View Post
Umm where are you getting your figures? Take a look at the Model S specs on the Tesla site. There are several charge rates available, and the range isn't 140 miles! You might be thinking of the previous model. And 30-50k for a new battery? I assume you just made that up? Source please.
Standard battery is 40kWh as I understand. Current replacement cost for batteries is ~$750/kWh, hence $30k. This is consistent with what my friend had to cough to to fix his bricked Roadster. The $85kWh battery would obviously be a LOT more.

The 140 mi range is generous for the standard 40kWh battery and will likely be less in practice. This is in line with Tesla's calculator.

If you have data that is not consistent with the above, please correct me and kindly cite sources.

Mark
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 04:01 PM
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Besides all of the above there are a few of us who do not commute to and from work or even work at all for that matter and would have batteries die from old age long before they were used up milage wise. My 2001 Chev. Blazer Xtreme only gets 16 MPG put in 11 years I have only out 26K miles on it which is approx. 1,625 gallons. If I average the cost of gas over the past 11 years it would likely be less than $3.25 per gallon which would total $5,281.25. That is a whole lot less than any replacement battery.

IMO more ICEs should be converted to natural gas and along those lines the goverment should be more inclinded to fund a nation wide natural gas refuling sysyem. One major issue however is that the Oil Kings do not want the competation and in the past have been very successful or shuting down any completion such as Bio Diesel.

Charles
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 04:06 PM
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CNG is my first choice. I looked at the Honda Accord which is/was the only available CNG vehicle to consumers a few years back. Then it was only sold in three states and there were no consumer filling stations near me. I believe it's available in more states now and I hear more CNG vehicles are on their way. Phill is available is available for filling at home, but installation cost is quite expensive.
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Ohmic View Post
CNG is my first choice. I looked at the Honda Accord which is/was the only available CNG vehicle to consumers a few years back. Then it was only sold in three states and there were no consumer filling stations near me. I believe it's available in more states now and I hear more CNG vehicles are on their way. Phill is available is available for filling at home, but installation cost is quite expensive.
My Uncle/Aunt have the CNG Civic in Salt Lake city. That is one of those cities where you get a good benefit with the nasty winter inversions. The car is good for "around town" but the range is VERY limited. He has a fill up station right next to work and he does that regularly. The furthest away from home they can drive to is St. George UT - but they can't make Las Vegas from there. So pretty limiting.

I got the Hybrid Honda Insight - it has not been my favorite. I consistently get 43mpg around town and about 52-53 on the highway at 55-64 and under. Going much faster drops the mileage dramatically. At 75 mph you are down to 42 or so.

It just isn't very refined - especially compared to the Prius.

If I had it to do all over again I would not get the Insight or any hybrid. The benefit is just too small. And the gap is smaller yet. The smallish efficient gas cars are getting close to 40mpg on the highway. I do admit - the city 43 is nice to have and tough to beat (Prius does - but that is 6-10k more!).

I want some clean diesel's. The TDI Jetta would be a primary consideration...

Can't wait for Hydrogen - I think the fuel cells are the answer - not batteries.

Mike
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Old Sep 26, 2012, 09:12 PM
BVH
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Way back in 1988, I bought the Honda CRX-HF and averaged 55 MPG on the highway. It was a very cheap car compared to the other versions of the CRX. It even featured a fuel flow shutoff during deceleration until about 10 mph or so.

In my career, I built (thru contractors) a public CNG Hi Pressure filling station and a low (350 Bar) and then later, a high pressure (700 BAR) Hydrogen vehicle fueling station. We fueled our 5 Hydrogen converted Priuses and one or two factory experimental vehicles). It was a huge waste of money. My 550 vehicle fleet ran full electric RAV4's for about 6 years, with few problems, a lot of high-priced Priuses (a waste of money in my humble opinion as are most hybrids). The CNG conversions (refuse trucks, buses, heavy dumps, over loaders and other HD equipment and the Honda CNG OEM's were very reliable fleet vehicles. I agree with many here that CNG - given a decent fueling infrastructure, is a very viable automotive fuel technology.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by mrforsyth View Post
Standard battery is 40kWh as I understand. Current replacement cost for batteries is ~$750/kWh, hence $30k. This is consistent with what my friend had to cough to to fix his bricked Roadster. The $85kWh battery would obviously be a LOT more.

The 140 mi range is generous for the standard 40kWh battery and will likely be less in practice. This is in line with Tesla's calculator.

If you have data that is not consistent with the above, please correct me and kindly cite sources.

Mark
I never indicated I was talking about the 40kWh version. You just assumed that presumably to put the range figure in the worst light. The range for the 85kwh is 300mi.

Upon more google searching, it appears you're in the ballpark with replacement cost. But it's just a figure thrown about for Roadster owners. No one seems to really know. For Model S, who knows how long the battery will last. I suspect quite long. Similarly, who knows what a battery will cost then in 10 years let's say--Tesla won't say either. And it won't be current Li-ion--maybe a completely different tech.

By the way the lifespan of Li-ion cells is quite dependent on depth of discharge. EV makers as I understand, are limiting quite severely that depth specifically to ensure long life.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Jim Marsden View Post
grimbeaver quotes the added cost of a hybrid Honda at $8200 (rounded off.) At $4 per gallon of fuel, that means the owner "pre-bought" 2050 gallons of gas. The difference in mileage is 5mpg, so the owner will use up his "pre-buy" of fuel in the first 10,250 miles. After that, he is saving money on fuel at the rate of about 13%, since the fuel savings due to the hybrid drivetrain are 5 in 39. This last point about having to replace batteries means that the owner will have to drive another 10K miles before their replacement is necessary if the battery pack costs $8000. If the batteries last 5 years, paying even for that cost shouldn't be hard. I hope I did this right, but looking at it this way, we should all be driving these!??!!
I don't think your math is quite right there. Pretty sure you just calculated the cost difference of driving the hybrid over a car which gets 5mpg. Let me see if this sounds right, say you expect to drive the car for 150k miles. In that case:

Standard - 150k miles / 39mpg = 3846 gallons of gas
Hybrid - 150k miles / 44mpg = 3409 gallons of gas

Difference = 437 gallons of gas over 150k miles

At $4 per gallon that's $1748 in savings for a car which cost about $8200 more.

Does that math sound right?
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by grimbeaver View Post
I don't think your math is quite right there. Pretty sure you just calculated the cost difference of driving the hybrid over a car which gets 5mpg. Let me see if this sounds right, say you expect to drive the car for 150k miles. In that case:

Standard - 150k miles / 39mpg = 3846 gallons of gas
Hybrid - 150k miles / 44mpg = 3409 gallons of gas

Difference = 437 gallons of gas over 150k miles

At $4 per gallon that's $1748 in savings for a car which cost about $8200 more.

Does that math sound right?
Yes, that sounds right.

I drive about 12000 miles a year, so for me the 39 MPG car would cost me $1231.00 per year at $4.00/gallon, while the 44 MPG car would cost me $1090.00 per year, for a difference of $141.00 per year. It would take 58 years to pay back the $8200.00 difference. Of course the price of gas may go up radically in the near future, so it might only take 30 years for the payback.

Dan
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:16 AM
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Yeah that crazy climate-change talk. The stuff all the smart people say is real (i.e. scientists), and all the dumb ones or those with an agenda, deny. Who shall we trust? But that's a whole other debate! (I'm not calling anyone dumb by the way, it's for illustrative purposes only). There are plenty of reasons other than that to end massive oil use-- which must happen eventually anyway. And there are plenty of other ways to grow an economy other than oil absurdity.
Good point. And you can call climate change deniers dumb all you want! Its true!
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by grimbeaver View Post
Until there's a decent break through in battery technology (or Mr. Fusion is invented) money spent on hybrids and EVs would be much better spent on clean diesel. Speaking of which why can't I get a diesel engine for my airplane?
Maybe for electric only vehicles. Hybrid technology is doing fine, being cheap and reliable. Toyota has shown us this.

Edit: I'm all for clean diesels. VW has led the way as far as clean diesels are concerned, although they're still not as fuel efficient as hybrids.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:29 AM
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For those only taking a look at Honda and their hybrid cars please look at the industry hybrid leader, which is Toyota. Prius can be had in 4 different models which are cost competive with ICE models of similar size and capacity. PLUS, the Prius models have some of the lowest cost of ownership and best reliability of any cars on the road.

All electric cars have a ways to go IMHO, but will eventually get there I'm sure. Progressive thinking drives technology ahead.......putting your head in the sand drives it backwards.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:45 AM
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For those only taking a look at Honda and their hybrid cars please look at the industry hybrid leader, which is Toyota. Prius can be had in 4 different models which are cost competive with ICE models of similar size and capacity. PLUS, the Prius models have some of the lowest cost of ownership and best reliability of any cars on the road. .
Yea - I would look at the new small Prius if I were shopping now - but I don't think I will ever have a Hybrid again. When I looked and bought the Pruis - they were charging TOP dollar as they could get that. The comparable Pruis was 6k more than the Insight and the Insight I got was 5k more than the Fit (pretty close in size to the insight). So when you take 10k in as the difference hybrid will never make sense.
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:50 AM
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How's the AC in TX w/Prius?

How about heater in MN winter.

Affect on mpg?
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Old Sep 27, 2012, 10:54 AM
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I don't know about Prius - but my Insight the AC costs about 1-2 MPG. Not as much as a standard car. The Insight really decreases output on that.

The new Prius I think uses an electric motor for AC to bump their city stuff up. Prius is much more advanced than Honda (or anyone else for that matter).

Mike
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