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Old Oct 17, 2012, 02:01 PM
Mosquito 6
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Originally Posted by mrforsyth View Post
Note that the cost to operate an EV is very similar to the cost to operate our electric planes. e.g. - the cost to charge the battery is inconsequential compared to the cost of the battery. EV batteries will need to be replaced at some point, much in the same way that we need to replace our lipolys. A 200+ mile battery for a vehicle the size of a Tesla S will cost ~$40K to replace...
Negatroid .. Tesla buys their 18650's from Panasonic for $3.23 a copy .. times 6,831 figures to be $22,064 and robotics have slashed assembly costs dramatically. If they switch to the second iteration of Pani's 3rd generation 18650's next April (4,000 mAh) they could conceivably almost double range* or reduce cell count.

JMHO, but I think Nissan is on the right track .. makin' their own prismatics using LiMnO2 chemistry, and their target is to get their battery cost down to $8,000 per vehicle. Japan's economy may be "stagnant", but they'er still gittin-er-done. Cryin' shame about A123, especially after a quarter billion leg up from Sam .. which is of course US.

http://www.hybridcars.com/news/nissa...ack-51774.html.

Maybe off thread, but a week or so ago someone from SoCal posted gas was $5.35 down the street. I got a load of LPG on Monday (about 215 gallons), which is of course a by-product of cracking gasoline. The driver handed me the meter ticket and to my astonishment .. it was a paltry $2.00 a gallon .. to the penny. That is the lowest price I've paid in years. Methinks something's rotten in Denmark .. maybe the redcoats at Chevron working their agenda.

*Comparing the 3rd gen 4,000 mAh with the original 2,250 mAh Pani's, and configure for 2C from 10C continuous discharge rate.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter View Post
Not contributing much to the discussion with a comment like that.



What I meant by this was that agriculture subsidies is a complete different subject and has nothing to do with the current discussion.
We are talking about government stepping in and trying to make something out of nothing by lowering the price of a product.
Don't we comdem other countries governments for lowering the true price of a product and then selling it in the U.S.?
Agriculture subsidies do something completely different.
They falsely prop up the price of the product.
Besides, I don't believe in them either.
"An agricultural subsidy is a governmental subsidy paid to farmers and agribusinesses to supplement their income, manage the supply of agricultural commodities, and influence the cost and supply of such commodities. Examples of such commodities include wheat, feed grains (grain used as fodder, such as maize or corn, sorghum, barley, and oats), cotton, milk, rice, peanuts, sugar, tobacco, and oilseeds such as soybeans."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_subsidy
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 03:03 PM
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Originally Posted by TayNinh68 View Post
Negatroid .. Tesla buys their 18650's from Panasonic for $3.23 a copy .. times 6,831 figures to be $22,064 and robotics have slashed assembly costs dramatically. If they switch to the second iteration of Pani's 3rd generation 18650's next April (4,000 mAh) they could conceivably almost double range* or reduce cell count.
Contrary to the belief of some, Tesla does not run a charity. Rather, they are a 'for profit' entity and assembling, testing, and installing a completed ESS in a vehicle is significantly greater than the cost of the individual cells. The numbers you've quoted are for the smaller Roadster battery. Current replacement cost for a Roadster battery is ~$40K. The >200 mi Type S battery is larger so it stands to reason that replacement cost would be no less than the Roadster battery.

But don't take my word for it. Do some research. Here's a little help...

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...cost-you-40000

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/au...anted=all&_r=0

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-mo...design-problem

Will battery costs come down? Likely. By how much? Remains to be seen and dependent on many factors. Some have even said that as demand for lithium based secondary batteries continues to increase, a corresponding increase in the price of batteries is entirely possible.

Cheers.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 03:13 PM
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Rebates for EV's aren't just to help people randomly buy some useless product or support some company. It's being done to attempt to alleviate environmental and other issues that are already out of control and need *immediate* action. Issues that the free market essentially has zero interest in--or not nearly enough to currently make any difference. But we need to make a difference right now. Business has no interest in ethical issues, or any others for that matter, beyond profit. The earth could be guaranteed total destruction in 50 years and the 'free enterprise' couldn't care less, so long as they're showing strong 4th quarter growth this year.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Beckler View Post
Rebates for EV's aren't just to help people randomly buy some useless product or support some company. It's being done to attempt to alleviate environmental and other issues that are already out of control and need *immediate* action. Issues that the free market essentially has zero interest in--or not nearly enough to currently make any difference.
I don't follow, can you please explain a little more?

How does the government giving me money to buy an EV car "alleviate environmental and other issues"?
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 03:37 PM
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"Free enterprise" might care...if you could actually convince them that the earth was guaranteed total destruction within 50 years. But how could you? The problem here is that so many environmental fanatics have screamed for so long that people have begun to disregard any information presented as yet more opinion based, un-informed, clueless babble.

That is a facet of human nature.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 03:49 PM
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Oh I see, so companies that were dumping toxins freely in the past but now cannot due to increased regulations in the last few decades, would have stopped on their own...umm why, exactly? Same situation now. When it comes to environmental damage, the record's pretty clear that no one's going to do anything significant unless urged/forced.

As far as people disregarding information. "People" are very ignorant and irrational. Who cares what "most" people think. That's why scientists exist. Policy should be determined by where the science points, and that's toward more 'green' energy in this case--but that's not rocket science anyway.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 03:53 PM
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Beckler,

Can you please answer my question -

How does the government giving me money to buy an EV car "alleviate environmental and other issues"?
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 05:15 PM
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Originally Posted by LesUyeda View Post
" 100% green energy used to recharge it at home,"

Where do you get your electricity. Mine comes mostly from OIL fired deisel generators. You are exculsively on Solar??????

Les
100% green energy is available to all consumers across most of the country regardless of how the local electricity is generated. This is achieved by the way the wholesale and retail markets are structured. It does not mean that every joule of energy arriving at my house came from a 100% green source. It does mean that the retailer must purchase as much green electricity as they sell. The majority of generating plant remains fossil-fuel based, but as demand rises from the retailers, the wholesalers build more renewable-based generating capacity. This is another way that government regulation is encouraging migration from unsustainable and highly polluting sources to sustainable ones.

Another government supported initiative is a subsidy for the installation of household PV systems. This is a clear case where initial government intervention is transforming the industry by enabling it to reach a scale where costs are falling, further accelerating the transition to sustainable energy. The reason the market fails here is that the true cost of fossil fuels is not built into their price. In a "free market" as it currently works, their price will not rise fast enough to bring about the transition we need in time to mitigate the severe problems we are facing. One of the roles of government is to protect their people from major threats that the people themselves cannot do individually. That includes looming environmental and economic catastrophes where the timescales exceed the election cycle.

At the moment I pay a premium for green energy (both electricity and gas) and pay for carbon offsets for my car's fuel and my airplane flights because I believe we have to change for the sake of our children.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 05:38 PM
Mosquito 6
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Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter View Post
I don't know of any subsidies for oil and coal.
Of course there is .. I remember when the Depletion Allowance was at 27% .. now at 15% .. still, it's corporate wellness-fare. Surely the redcoats plan on closing that "Loophole" .. Right? So if you pump out a $Billion .. just take off $150 million off the top .. no problema.

"Under percentage depletion, the deduction for the recovery of one’s capital investment is a fixed percentage of the gross income (sales revenue) from the sale of the oil or gas. For oil and gas royalty owners, percentage depletion is calculated using a rate of 15% of the gross income based on your average daily production of crude oil or natural gas, up to your depletable oil or natural gas quantity. An attractive element of percentage depletion is that the cumulative depletion deductions may be greater than the capital amount spent by the taxpayer to acquire the property."

Back on thread, I'm pleased that Johnson Controls is jumping in to rescue some of A123's assets and jobs. That's awesome, and I am a loyal Interstate (battery) user here .. tractors and trucks .. I swear by them .. not at them. If anybody can make A123 work, it's them. That's good news, and we never have enough .

Now my only question is, where can I find me soma them there Binders Full of Women ah been hearin' bout?
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 05:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheWoodCrafter View Post
Beckler,

Can you please answer my question -

How does the government giving me money to buy an EV car "alleviate environmental and other issues"?
For every EV that replaces an ICE on the road today that's one less smog producing, petroleum consuming, vehicle on the road today. The less polluting the vehicle is the environmental damage that vehicle creates. The less petroleum consumed the less dependence on foreign oil.
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 05:44 PM
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Some may find the posts from Heliguychris in this thread interesting where he discusses his PV system on his house in West Australia.

http://rc.runryder.com/helicopter/t694761p1/
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 06:09 PM
Mosquito 6
Joined Jun 2012
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Originally Posted by mrforsyth View Post

http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/1...cost-you-40000

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/04/au...anted=all&_r=0

http://jalopnik.com/5887265/tesla-mo...design-problem

Will battery costs come down? Likely. By how much? Remains to be seen and dependent on many factors. Some have even said that as demand for lithium based secondary batteries continues to increase, a corresponding increase in the price of batteries is entirely possible.

Cheers.
Thanks for the links .. I was already aware of the "Bircking" problem with the Pani's .. just the nature of the chemistry that Tesla has embraced. I'd use a Pani to fly with, but for my real life needs, replacing the fla batteries in my system will be LiFeP04 chemistry .. 600 Ah 48vdc nominal. Lower energy density, but I don't care .. they sit on the floor downstairs

There is So much going on in China with these Lipo's, I seriously doubt that prices will increase, barring an embargo of Chilean Lithium a couple years out. Lets just keep our fingers crossed that Johnson Controls can meet all it's challenges, including fostering the re-birth of A123
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 07:19 PM
Mosquito 6
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Originally Posted by Ohmic View Post
Priceless.
+1

WC .. it's collectively called "The Farm Bill" and everybody's gotta eat. It expired on September 30th, and the do-nothing House sits on their hands .. again. Cutting out payments to farmers to plant nothing .. good idea. About 70% of this Bill funds some food assistance programs you may have heard of, and are currently unfunded, as well as crop insurance programs that are absolutely necessary for framers to be able to plan ahead to best minimize risk, especially with drought years. This is an entirely different animal than the A123 debacle, or subsidizing purchases of "Green" hybrid or EV vehicles. Notice, I did try to get this back on thread guys ..

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/22/us...-in-house.html
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Old Oct 17, 2012, 11:33 PM
Hey Now
Cocoa Beach, Florida
Joined Feb 2004
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If you are really "green" and care you won't have children and will just kill yourself off to help the planet. Ok, that's not gonna happen so lets regroup and figure things out. 1)model airplanes are not "green".

Has anyone actually tried living off the land? I spent 31 days in the rainforests of Borneo back in 1996 and let me tell ya' it was painful, brutal and the absolute most strenuous time of my life. It was "green" living at it's finest hunter gatherer style (learned to eat grubs as well). I lost weight, learned tiger leeches hurt bad, regular leeches aren't so bad and had bad foott problems but it was green living except at the main base camp where I got a hot meal instead of whatever could be found.

Let's just say I'm ok with non-green technology now.
-Scott
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