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Old Sep 23, 2012, 05:43 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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Flying styles.

This may be sort of a rant but also, I hope, constructive. When I look at video shot of model helicopters, the one thing that turns me right off is watching some of the greatest looking models being flown by pilots that can't fly. What I am referring to is continuous figure 8 flying with no variation at all. What a complete waste of a great heli. I have seen this at National Championships and it makes me wonder why the pilots CAN'T BE BOTHERED to learn how to fly a proper circuit? To see a 25 thousand dollar Vario jet engine powered 1/5 scale Lama being flown around in figure 8's gets me put off enough to turn the video off and look for someone that can fly.

Guys, spend some time with a plank or a cheap pod and boom helicopter and learn how to fly a proper circuits around a field, as it will enhance both the looks of your model and show others that you really can fly that helicopter. It takes time, yes, but what I do see is heli owners who have not learned how to fly nose-in, which can turn into an awful crash if the heli does get nose-in on them and they can't handle it. We spend a lot of time and effort into building our helicopters into something we can be proud of so let's also put the same effort into learing how to fly them and hot just hover-fly. My latest heli was nearly destroyed by a hover-flyer who has the money to buy his way into whatever heli he wants, but he can't fly it to save his life (or my heli).

This fall/winter/spring put some time into nose-in hovering and circuit flying so that people will be seriously impressed by the way you fly your heli. Trust me, people DO notice. Take care.

Don
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 09:54 PM
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Double E's Avatar
Atlanta, GA
Joined Mar 2009
889 Posts
Don,

I promise to do some proper circuits for you with my Jayhawk but I was being conservative while I get everything trimmed out.

I know exactly what you mean, I went to a local scale heli fun fly and was amazed to see the caliber of helicopters being hovered around by owner/pilot/builders that could barely fly them. It was funny to see people come from all over the Southeastern US and only fly their nice scale helicopters twice. Once in the morning and once around dusk. Weird.
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 06:51 AM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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I was never trying to single out anyone in specific but I have seen national level scale competitors that cannot fly a simple circuit. By the way, the same applies to a lot of 3D flyers that can fly the butt off of their heli and smack down like more tomorrow but are lost doing circuits, lol. Double E, keep at it and you will find that simple flying can be a challenge to do it as if you are watching a full size helicopter, and when you do something like a high angle approach, the illusion is really convincing to those that watch. Take care.

Don
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 08:36 AM
Complete RC Idiot Savant
The Netherlands
Joined Nov 2009
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To be honest: flying lazy eights is indeed not the most impressive thing....

But other than that, it is a load of cr*p, I am very sorry to say.

I learned nose in approx 10 years ago, but somehow it's just not set aside for me .... I can do nose in on a fairly light wind, as long as the helicopter is with the nose in the wind (and I am standing with my back to the wind), and as long as it is a trainer.... In the same condition I can do full circles in front of me, even at low speed and altitude.

But that is not the point.... it is not a matter of
"it can turn into an awful crash if the heli does get nose-in on them and they can't handle it"....

The point is: if the helicopter turns nose in on you without it being your intention, THAT is an indicator of not being able to fly....

Good (safe) flying has NOTHING to do with the set of manouvers you have mastered... it has EVERYTHING to do, with keeping the helicopter within your own personal comfort zone, knowing your own abilities and keeping a decent safety margin.

A good pilot is not the one with the most impressive set of manouvers in his repertoire (although definitely more entertaining to watch), a good pilot is a pilot that at the end of the day gets his model into the back of his car the same way it came out at the start of the day....

Similar like what they say in the real world: a good pilot is the pilot that died in his bed of old age, not the guy that flew inverted at 1 ft altitude, 5 minutes before....

Brgds, Bert
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 09:58 AM
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Sweden, Gothenburg
Joined Aug 2005
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Dont really understand the difference betveen flying a eight or a circle and why
People complaining about different flying styles,its up to everyone do it best they wish with theirs heli,pod or scale,some people do it better than others an so with everything in life,for me when watching a scale its most important to feel that the scalebehavior is in,even pilots that are mastering 3d outstanding flies in front
Of them with hs that looks like it gone implode the heli often with spectators right behind them,they shurly mastering the heli when all links are there but dont want to think whats happends if something brokes when they are towarding themselves often inverted with that speed,the point is that safety always should
Go with common sence and thats it,if someone like mentioned earlier goes for a
$$$$ machine and wants just hover it the choice is his,if someone is exposing other to danger that one should be told,personaly i rather watch a scale fly " boring" eigths then boring kick ass 3 d as long the scale is flying like a scale should do.

Cheers
Jack
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 10:43 AM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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The point I am trying to make without getting your knickers in a knot, Bert, is that too many regular pilots are not able to fly in a simple rectangular circuit. If you can, great. However, what you are telling me is that, after ten years of flying heli's, you are still not in full control of your helicopter.

What I see are lazy pilots that either can't or refuse (because of their incompetence) to fly as other aircraft are REQUIRED to do at a club field. Every aircraft pilot is taught how to fly in circuits so that there is a constant while in the air and to be able to change the direction of that circuit as the wind condtions require. At one end of the field you are turning with the crowd, which is great, but at the other end, you are going head-on towards the oncomming traffic. Lazy 8's are not the sign of a good pilot, but a lazy, poor one. If you disagree, that's your choice, but you won't change my view of someone who could be the cause of a great deal of trouble for others in the future. As I said, one of those lazy pilots nearly destroyed my heli which would have been entirely his fault, as he lead others to believe that he could fly in a simple standard circuit. If the crash had happened, all there would have been from him was an "Oops, so sorry". In your eyes, is that fair? It's called practice and everyone should make the time to bring their skill level up. Take care.

Don
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 11:04 AM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
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A lazy 8 never requires the helicopter (or plane) to be flown directly at the pilot so that pilot can avoid ever having to master when flying the model towards him. A circle requires that to happen and is, at least, close to a circuit but it is far different than a lazy 8. The pilot training program, at all our clubs, requires you to be able to fly in a level circuit, either to the left or right, as part of getting your wings. Is it that tough to ask that pilots improve their skills? It will only make them better pilots. Take care.

Don
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 11:24 AM
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Sweden, Gothenburg
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
A lazy 8 never requires the helicopter (or plane) to be flown directly at the pilot so that pilot can avoid ever having to master when flying the model towards him. A circle requires that to happen and is, at least, close to a circuit but it is far different than a lazy 8. The pilot training program, at all our clubs, requires you to be able to fly in a level circuit, either to the left or right, as part of getting your wings. Is it that tough to ask that pilots improve their skills? It will only make them better pilots. Take care.

Don
Don....In some sense I agree with you,the natural step from lazy eights is to make the angle wider and it should come naturally that the model comes facing towards you,this is a matter of practice,on other side i dont think its fair to say that bert is not mastering his heli just because he dont feel comfortable to hover nose in,its a big difference,at least this is my opinion to hower a heli nose in in a small distance in front of you compared to fly a plane or heli towards you,the important thing is that you are mastering the manouvers you are intend to do and doing,everybody aiming on different skills of flying,not all becomes aces.

Keep up the good flying Don and Bert

Cheers
Jack
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 12:54 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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Jack, the distance a helicopter is hovered nose-in in front of you is not as important as it is to be able to do so in most normal flying conditions no matter what the wind direction is. There are training programs and proficiency tests that do keep track of the progress of an individual pilot but the one in place here (similar program in the US) does not allow the pilot to progress or fly on their own out of their ability. Forward controlled flight is at the end of the program where the pilot is given their full advanced Wings. The program was meant to train pilots how to fly in standard circuits, basic flight maneuvers, basic to mid-level aerobatics, and finally do a full autoration landing. Once through that, they could fly along side the rest of the club members.

What I am seeing in many, many videos is a lack of training or lack of practice on behalf of the pilot in that video and that is what I am getting at. It was never my intention to single out any one person in any video for their lack of skill. Sounds tough or even cold hearted but it is what it is. I love to see a nice scale heli being flown as if the pilot is in the cockpit and can do what ever the real ship can do (some can do more) or a really well flown precision flight like that seen in F3C. Maybe if 3D would slow down, you would be able to see skill and not blind luck come into many of their moves, but for now, it looks like a mess. Take care.

Don
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 12:56 PM
Complete RC Idiot Savant
The Netherlands
Joined Nov 2009
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Don,

It is not me that is getting in a knot....
Obviously, you are slightly p*ssed off because somebody on your field did not know how to fly circuits and nearly destroyed your helicopter while at it....

What if i tell you, that most clubs here in Europe (at least in the Netherlands) do not allow helicopters and planes to be flown simultaneously in the same airspace, and most clubs really encourage helicopter pilots, if flying simultaneously, to fly in their own box. Where's the importance of that circuit?

I fly Demo's on several different fields, and I can assure you, that the ability to fly a circuit is completely irrelevant. The ability to fly there where you don't endanger somebody... Thát's what it is all about. The ability to communicate with other pilots is another.... if you are lining up for approach, usually you request a free approach. That you nearly got your chopper destroyed because somebody was in the wrong place at the wrong time and in the wrong course, has nothing to do with being able to fly a circuit, but all with communication....

As to flying skills....

I am flying helicopter now for 30 years. I have learned the trade with those old machines that would nowadays not even be considered airworthy straight from the box.
In the old days without gyro and with ineffective and unreliable tailrotors, it was allready considered lethal to hover with the tail into the wind, let alone nose in.
Unfortunately, that has stuck with me, and I simply feel very uncomfortable flying nose in or full circuits (I am able to but I really hate it).

Besides, I generally fly big scale helicopters with fairly low power to weight ratio's and that seriously limits you in what you can safely do... I would not like to be forced to fly uncomfortable manouvres with those machines

I would like to see you fly the helicopters I fly, the way I fly them, than we can discuss lazy pilots, lack of skills etc etc. again....

Brgds, Bert
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 02:18 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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No, communication had nothing to do with this heli owner not being able to fly as he did come close to crashing into a couple of pilots boxes, his and the one beside him. He never had proper control of his helicopter from the very start. He was given instructions to take off and fly a left hand circuit (club requirement and wind dictated) and as he went in front of my flight box and appeared to be heading off, I was given the go ahead to take off. What he did was to hover-fly to the right, towards my position, then suddenly turned back and they thought he was flying forward and out. At that point, I was told to take-off into the circuit but as I taxied out, he changed direction and flew directly at my heli. Communication had nothing to do with what he was up to, and not one single person could predict what he would do next. By shear luck, he pulled a bit of elevation and avoided a direct mid-air but his wash was what made my helicopter plummet to the ground, nearly impacting it but I pulled collective to halt the crash. At that point, the officials had to tell him to land. Yes, I am pissed at that pilot for not being forthcoming about what he could and could not do with his heli but that was not what the original post was about. It is about how awful constant lazy 8's look in a video that is supposed to be the pilot showing off both his heli AND his flying so when I see nothing but lazy 8's, I get turned off and move on. Have I clarified this for you? I also remember the days of flying my Heli-Baby back in the early 80's. Take care.

Don

PS: I can afford any heli I want, I just don't have the space for them
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 02:22 PM
dusty bible = dirty life
Majortomski's Avatar
Oklahoma City OK USA Where fakts still exist even if they are ignored
Joined Aug 2000
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I think if you watch enough crash videos taken at any fixed wing event you will see that many excellent scale builders are weak to poor flyers only because they spend all their time building and no time out flying/ practicing.

Then there is the built in pucker factor of "I spendt so much time builidng it that I'm terrified I'll crash it.) comes into play too.

Just my opinion
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 03:25 PM
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Sweden, Gothenburg
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Originally Posted by Majortomski View Post
I think if you watch enough crash videos taken at any fixed wing event you will see that many excellent scale builders are weak to poor flyers only because they spend all their time building and no time out flying/ practicing.

Then there is the built in pucker factor of "I spendt so much time builidng it that I'm terrified I'll crash it.) comes into play too.

Just my opinion
Correct,how many airplane fliers,well correct term should be builders not fliers
Are taking airtime...well the crashes are spectacular sadly lessons not taken

Cheers
Jack
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 04:30 PM
Love my scale Whirlybirds
Keyrigger's Avatar
Mississauga, Ont., Can.
Joined Sep 2009
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Yes, I have seen that happen a few times and heard about many. One of our local flyers has this saying, "All that time for one take-off". Take care.

Don
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Old Sep 24, 2012, 09:38 PM
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Atlanta, GA
Joined Mar 2009
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For me the key is getting the heli setup properly so that it is flying predictably. When I was maidening my Coast Guard Jayhawk this weekend, I was fighting strong gusting winds as well as an over responsive rudder so I stuck to basic forward flying maneuvers. Once I get the heli dialed in and I'm not flying in strong gusting winds, I'll fly any circuit you like. Left hand, right hand, figure eights in either direction and even some nose in hovering on the deck. With the Jayhawk, I look forward to performing some heavy lift takeoffs with a nice roll out on the runway. Should be cool.
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