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Old Sep 23, 2012, 02:23 PM
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Originally Posted by HELModels View Post
Tell that to the Horten Bros. They were so far ahead of everybody.
It's true they were ahead of their peers at the time (particularly in terms of designing stable high speed swept wings). However, that doesn't mean their designs would have outperformed conventionally configured post war jets of the 50s or 60s, and we're another 50 years on from then. The limits of the swept flying wing are fundamental and inescapable - take a look at the washout angles they had to use to stabilise their finless designs. They're enough to give a structural engineer heart failure!
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 02:25 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Originally Posted by HELModels View Post
Tell that to the Horten Bros. They were so far ahead of everybody.
The only Horton brother's I'm aware of failed to produce a single design that made it into service. Their 'crowning glory' Ho-229 fighter crashed on it's third flight killing the pilot. Quite a record.. You are obviously thinking of some other Horton brothers who made successful planes?

The Horton designs were elegant, graceful, and in some way's ahead of their time but ultimately they were failures. If they were so good and had so much potential how come the skies aren't full of Horton inspired flying wings? If that's the best you can come up with in support of tailless planes I think my case is proven.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MattyB View Post
... that doesn't mean their designs would have outperformed conventionally configured post war jets of the 50s or 60s, and we're another 50 years on from then.
Our premiere strategic bomber is a flying wing. Just sayin'.

mw
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 02:50 PM
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Exactly.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:06 PM
Electric Coolhunter
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
The stabilising effect of a pusher is very true but relying on the pusher prop effect to make your plane stable is a dangerous game, because it only works when you have power on
But I agree totally that putting the prop on the nose will de-stabilise the plane potentially requiring more vertical stab area and a more forward CG.
Saying it has a stablizing effect is not the same thing as saying it will fully stablize the model...
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:08 PM
tic
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Originally Posted by Eclipse_7 View Post
For some reason flying wings make me think of snowboarders side slipping a double black diamond. Yea, you got down the mountain, but it wasn't exciting and you looked really stupid.
I remember the good old days when snowboards were BANNED at many ski areas. I love watching the boarders waddle and struggle to the chairlifts in the most awkward biomechanical fashion ever seen . Baggy pants, hoodies and all, they are the epitome of the zagi generations values. Good post Eclipse!
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:11 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Originally Posted by HELModels View Post
Exactly.
Yep.. That's the 'one' example I expected you to come up with. In that instance the tailless flying wing design is entirely for low radar profile 'stealth' rather then ultimate efficiency or performance. Performance is traded for stealth.

Compare the B-1 to the B-2 and you will see the B-1 has the B-2 beat in every aspect of performance. The B-1 is faster, has a higher ceiling, longer range, bigger payload... etc etc...

The B-1 does undeniably look awsome though

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_B-1_Lancer
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northro...man_B-2_Spirit
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by JetPlaneFlyer View Post
The only Horton brother's I'm aware of failed to produce a single design that made it into service. Their 'crowning glory' Ho-229 fighter crashed on it's third flight killing the pilot. Quite a record.. You are obviously thinking of some other Horton brothers who made successful planes?

The Horton designs were elegant, graceful, and in some way's ahead of their time but ultimately they were failures. If they were so good and had so much potential how come the skies aren't full of Horton inspired flying wings? If that's the best you can come up with in support of tailless planes I think my case is proven.
We are not talking about Horton as in "Horton Hears a Who", but about the Horten Brothers...

Can't call the Horten designs a complete failure when the Ho.IV won the 1952 US National Soaring Championships after WWII......

As the war ended, there were 20 Ho.VIIs in series production, as well as 50 H.IIIs and a number of Ho.IVs and Ho.IXs. Simply overtaken by events.

Just like any other aircraft design, a flying wing is a set of design compromises flying in close formation. Sometimes the compromise works for a given situation (witness the B-2) and sometimes it does not.

Delta wings are a form of tailless flying wing and have achieved success with a number of designs.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:26 PM
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Yup, Horten Bros.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:29 PM
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You can see where the desire to terrorize little old ladies with Zagis originated. Here they are laughing about how they buzzed some folks in a park.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:40 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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By 'service' I was meaning military service. According to the data I found only one prototype Ho-VII was produced, 18 were ordered but production never started, these were intended to be trainers rather than front like aircraft.
I have to admit though I didn't appreciate that their gliders were made in any numbers. Having said that, show me a tailless glider today that can compete with the conventional tailed ones? Maybe their glider won a contest in 1952 what won it every other year?

I actually really like the Horten designs, they are so elegant. However if anyone is trying to build the case for tailless planes I don't think quoting Horten as proof of 'tailless superiority' is very convincing.

But yes, of course this isn't to say that they don't have certain niches, such as the B-2 for example.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 03:56 PM
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As far as noise goes, all the high rpm props create a lot of noise, including the EDFs. But these are not alone. Few public parks would allow glow engine planes, because of the noise. Noise is a different issue than style of plane.

Speed and safety are an issue. A 20 lb Piper Cub falling out of the sky can do a lot of damage. So can a flying wing, chasing things.

If you want to promote public acceptance of flying RC things in public parks, fly safely, and promote safe flying. Or take the figure 8 racing to the closest AMA club, and do it safely!
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 05:02 PM
Grumpy old git.. Who me?
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Originally Posted by Thomas B View Post
Can't call the Horten designs a complete failure when the Ho.IV won the 1952 US National Soaring Championships after WWII......

Thomas.. Have you got any references to back this up?
I did a bit of Googling and according to the official records of the 1952 19th US National Soaring Championship a Ross-Johnson RJ-5 (a conventional tailed sailplane design) won the event and Schweizer SGS 1-23's came second, third and fourth. I found no reference to a Horten even competing that year or in fact any year around that date The RJ-5 also won in 1950, 1951 and 1954 with the SGS 1-23 winning in 1953.
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 05:07 PM
Balsa to the Wall
Deep in the East Texas Piney Woods
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Well, Tic, you've done it again. Thanks, this made my day.


Chuck
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Old Sep 23, 2012, 07:41 PM
tic
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When Yeager test flew a flying wing and it crashed/burned, as the emergency crew went to put out the fire, Yeager exclaimed "LET IT BURN". He hated the things.
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