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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:02 AM
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forget the us....i think that a good portion of the world is somewhat paranoid right now....and also, i think people tend to be cautious, for fear of being sued...eg. kids sailing boats and falling in the water etc...people are getting sued for the most ridiculous things these days, and are getting away with it....it's a lawyers field day....that's probably a greater fear than national security
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by yancovitch View Post
forget the us....i think that a good portion of the world is somewhat paranoid right now....and also, i think people tend to be cautious, for fear of being sued...eg. kids sailing boats and falling in the water etc...people are getting sued for the most ridiculous things these days, and are getting away with it....it's a lawyers field day....that's probably a greater fear than national security
This is why all laboratory rats have been replaced with lawyers here at Austria. We started to feel sympathetic with the rats....
*PRUAHAHAHA!* (very evil pirates laugh)
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 10:56 AM
USA, DC, Washington D.C.
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Other "dangers" in our parks

Apparently our responsible officials are afraid of bombs placed in model sailboats sailing in the reflecting pools in central Washington DC. Now I suggest that they should be equally afraid of bombs placed in baby carriages passing through the same parks. The carriages are larger and could contain larger bombs, so I suggest that the park police be charged with inspecting all baby carriages passing through the parks to make sure that there are live babys in the carriages and no bombs in the carriages.
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 11:19 AM
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Originally Posted by George Steele View Post
Apparently our responsible officials are afraid of bombs placed in model sailboats sailing in the reflecting pools in central Washington DC. Now I suggest that they should be equally afraid of bombs placed in baby carriages passing through the same parks. The carriages are larger and could contain larger bombs, so I suggest that the park police be charged with inspecting all baby carriages passing through the parks to make sure that there are live babys in the carriages and no bombs in the carriages.
You are right!
But - do you really believe a terrorist, who is ready to kill people with a bomb,
wouldn´t also be ready to place the bomb UNDER that live baby???
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 02:34 PM
USA, DC, Washington D.C.
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where are the regulations??

I am terrible at computerized legal research so help me. Where can I find the regulations or statutes relevant to this idea that the Park Service or others can regulate or prohibit sailing radio controlled model sailboats on the reflecting pools in or around DC?
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Old Nov 30, 2012, 05:31 PM
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1) Who said they are published online?

2) Try "Failure to obey an officer." e.g. The Ranger told you to remove your boat and you didn't.

"That which is is not specifically allowed is forbidden." is the case here.

National Park Service (NPS) has a system wide policy to prohibit any activities that do not conform to the nature and purpose of the system or particular site. In other words, you won't find costumed "Live Action Role-Playing" on NPS administered lands as the NPS feels and costumed, medieval themed or fantasy events are inappropriate and contrary to the purpose of National Parks. (Only pre-approved Re-enactors (most likely professionals or docents) wearing approved costumes and sticking to an approved script guidelines are allowed on NPS sites.) "National Security" just provides another near-bulletproof layer of justification for restrictions.

Is this a law, no. It is a policy laid down by headquarters and can mean whatever the local administrator wants it to mean.

As I have pointed out previously on this thread: What is an 'inappropriate use' of a NPS asset? Whatever NPS says it is.

Talk with your Senator. But understand also that the Washington bureaucracy does not fear elected officials. Congresscritters, Senators and even Presidents come and go, but the office workers in their concrete and granite hives are eternal.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 06:54 PM
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Another tack

Who is mad enough to put up some money to hire a lawyer???
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 03:21 PM
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36 CFR 1.6 Permits, Title 36 Parks, Forests etc.

The applicable language may be " ... scenic values ... will not be adversly impacted."
So the argument is over the impact of model sailboats sailing on the Capitol reflecting pools. We say that model sailboats are beautifying while the Park Service say they are degrading.

So how do we get a scientific poll taken on this topic?
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Old Dec 04, 2012, 08:31 PM
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George, I think Craig's point was there is no rhyme or reason for Park service rules. They are purely "What I think is what we will do, and I'm the Boss, so there!" Thus, your attempt to impose data on the above is doomed to failure. Irrational decisions are not affected by rational data. Plus, the antiboat decision is a moving target...if you prove X is unlikely, then they will cite Y, ad infinitum.

I think your best bet would be to invoke JFK and talk to your Congressman or Senator. Maybe you will luck out and the politician you talk to will be looking for something to cover up his failure to control spending/keep us from running off the cliff/make the hard choices/etc.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 10:56 AM
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DC's political clout is close to zero in Congress so ???

It might be helpful if we assembled all available photos of model boats sailing in the two DC reflecting pools over the many years. At lease these should show that past managers were tolerant of this activity and thus raise the question of why the current officials disallow what used to be allowed. (The pools as mirrors theory.)
Then we need to discuss the boats as bombs theory including the "remote" control situation. Do we have any bomb experts? How much explosives can you get into a four foot sailing model; a three foot model, etc.?
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:38 PM
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simply....bring it to the media...have the people vote to see if the local residents would like to see sailboats on the pool....i've been trying to find some place to display my boat, and no one is the slightest bit interested....but when i cart it around the streets, people gather around so quickly and are totally amazed and impressed, and so many photos are taken.....so it's what do the people want...
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 03:50 PM
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George, I like the photos idea. "If part of the American Experience has been lost, the terrorists win" could be the title of the collection. Does the Park Service want to help the terrorists win? Put them in the position of explaining why they want to help terrorists.

As far as explosives vs boat size, Drop That One! Any explosion is too much for the Park Service, for one thing. For another, a few ml of nitroglycerin would fit into the smallest object, and cause a Big Bang. You don't want to get them fixated on explosions, you want to show them that they are destroying DC history.

Like was said earlier, if They bring up explosives, point out that shoes (TSA @airports), baby carriages, backpacks, Briefcases!, and cars are all capable of carrying explosives. And, if they ban boats due to "explosive danger", then you will publicly demand they ban all the above. "The Park Service wants to keep tourists and voters out of DC for the safety of the reflecting pools".....I doubt they want to get involved with that constituency!

Your strategy should be to always shape the argument so that the Park Service is defending itself against the Public. Bureaucrats don't like to be in the public eye. And newspapers & politicians like low hanging fruit, which is what you are setting the P.S up for (or more precisely, the P.S's regulations are setting themselves up for this, you are merely pointing it out to them before going public, etc.).

Don't shape the argument so that model boaters are defending themselves against the Park Service bureaucrats. You will lose...see irrational arguments vs data above.
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Old Dec 05, 2012, 06:10 PM
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OK I guess the next step is to dig up all the photos of model boats sailing on the reflecting pools and transfer them to this site!!!
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Wikipedia "capitol police board"

THIS BOARD seems to be the source of our problems.
It also seems unusual that no signs are posted around these pools stating its edicts..Perhaps a FOI request for a complete compendium of its edicts would be helpful???How it expects everyone to know its edicts without posting them around the pools is a mystery.
I
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Old Dec 06, 2012, 05:00 PM
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Freedom of information Act

Well I mailed such a request today to the Architect of the Capitol for all the statutory language, regulatory provisions and official instructions that prohibit or regulate the use of sailing models on the Capitol and Lincoln Memorial reflecting pools and those on the pond at Constitution Gardens. Now we will have to wait and see if I get any useful information.
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