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Old Nov 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
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I definitely agree, Jim.

In fact, it's important to have a plan even if you aren't really looking for lift. Many beginners let the plane fly itself and they just react. This slows down the learning process. Set goals for your flights. One good one for early flights is simply to achieve a nice climb without taking a path like a roller coaster. Another good training tool is to fly figure eights. Align some with the wind, some across the wind, and some at an angle. Mock landing approaches are also great experience. One doesn't even need to get very low and, again, it's a good idea to try your mock approaches with, against, and across the wind.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 05:46 PM
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Throttle stick IS Throttle...powered or unpowered

I switch back and forth between gliders and powered planes so I like to keep the throttle on the left stick (mode 2). That way I don't have to think about it when I find myself in a crisis.


Okay,
The assumption above is the same one so many guys who are buying ships like the Radian or Mystique or any of the big electric LAUNCH sailplanes make....They treat their models the same....powered.

Electric POWERED airplanes with long wings. They also think of their long winged powered models as "gliders" because they sometimes turn the motor off in flight, versus their electric powered park flyers that don't have long wings and look like military fighters or sport airplanes.

They don't refer to them as 'gliders' in conversation even though they sometimes turn off their motors and 'glide' down to a landing.

The left stick mode2 is the Throttle stick...it is NOT the flat stick on any rc airplane or sailplane...its always the throttle...with or with out a motor in the nose. Speed is controlled with the left stick.

And thats why you never put the motor control on that stick when you are setting up an "electric launch sailplane". The motor control is on and off, just like the winch or bungee. The throttle stick controls speed, not launch. Landing flaps are on that stick. You pull the stick downwards and the sailplane slows, you lift it up and the sailplane speeds up.

You see so many guys think this is splitting hairs, but many of you are new and will end up, able to own homes, pay taxes, somehow earn enough money to buy rc airplanes...yet become moronic when it comes to controling toy airplanes???

Confusion happens when their isn't uniformity. Sailplanes don't use motors to fly, only to launch. Powered planes use motors to launch and fly. Dual rate switches are up for high, down for low, speed control is throttle stick up and throttle stick down.

Okay think of it this way. Your TX...all TX's have three main programs, powered, sailplane and heli. Because they aren't the same.

The other day a clubmate was trying to figure out how to use his TX sailplane program to mix elevons on a slope wing. One guy said,"Use Vtail mix" because its in the Sailplane program. Vtail is a mix of rudder and elevator. Do any of you guys know where the rudder and elevator sticks are on a mode two TX? Yep different sides of the TX.

Elevon is a mix of Aileron and Elevator, same stick mixed together. So yes it is possible wrangle a few mixes to end up with sort of elevon control..., but its already done for us in the power model menu.

Newbies doing what's self intuitive leads to long term confusion and delays pilot growth....

Its okay to fly electric launch sailplanes as electric powered models with long wings, but its going to cost you big in the long run. Never ever turn the motor back on after a launch. Always land and launch again. Why? Because you will never be forced to work a thermal a bit harder and longer to make your time if you turn the motor back on before landing.

Do I ever turn my electric launch motor on after launch? Nope. I would though if If I could!!! Cuz I'm lazier than anyone else in all of RC Groups....so I programmed my alititude switch to not allow me to do it. :-)

Gordy
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 06:51 PM
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I disagree, Gordy, and don't much care for you calling me or anyone else "moronic". There's no call for it.

I've flown everything, for more than 40 years, with the throttle on the left stick. When I started there was no such thing as a programmable radio and all sailplanes were rudder/elevator. Even spoilers came later. The only way to mix functions was with mechanical linkages. With modern radios one is able to assign functions at will and the best way I have found for beginners, whether powered planes or sailplanes or powered sailplanes, is to limit the learning curve.

As for using the throttle... If one isn't in a contest that forbids it then never turning the motor back on is denying oneself time in the air. Time in the air is the only way to learn the art. At some point during the training of the dozens of people I've taught we will devote entire flying sessions to mock approaches. Many sailplane pilots will never fly anything more complicated than a Radian and they may move to powered planes after their first trainer. Personally, I find it easier to always use the throttle on the left stick and assign camber control to other switches, knobs, or sliders. On a simple three control sailplane, like my Specter 1800, I only use "spoilerons" for glide path control during landing and use a switch. For more precise use of flaps I find that it's a simple matter to use a knob.

I also happen to enjoy doing aerobatics during the still air of daybreak and dusk. Usually, that's when I break out the ASW 28 because it just looks better making low passes. One needs to use power for that unless one just does very short flights. The ASW also doesn't handle well when launched with full power. The wing picks up lift faster than the relatively tiny horizontal stab and the slightest miscue can result in a deep stall, where the wing blanks the horizontal stab, and that can bring disaster to experienced pilots as well as beginners. There are a lot of sailplanes that are difficult to control at low airspeed and high thrust. And, if one does make an error, it's far better to stretch out the approach with a bit of power than crash the plane out of sheer stubbornness.

Cheers!
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 11:09 PM
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Hints?

Hi Peter
You admit you've been away from the hobby and started this thread for new guys looking for answers.

Yet when I offered current hints you want to argue them.

If you feel your soaring credentials exceed all others then I'll bow out.

I offered sound safety advice and sound technical radio set up advice based on having RC soared 5 continents as well as you own. As a long time columnist for RC Soaring Digest and reader of the same since day one, I learned from the best of us and I've flown sailplanes with some of the best if yours too.

Let me ask this? What is the topic of this thread? Aerobatics with long winged electric power planes? I thought it was about soaring.

It is moronic and reckless to offer advice that could lead to injury.

Things were done differently years back...name one electric powered "glider" from the days you flew gliders that a new guy would be having his hands close to that could grind up his hand ... Not an F5b guy, an average guy.
Lipos and brushless and Carbon props didn't exist at any level.

Maybe I was wrong this thread isn't meant to help guys learn to identify and work thermals with their electric launch sailplanes.

I spend a lot of time in detail explaining what and WHY so that readers can get it quicker... Because like the "lucky" fisherman - the more we study the more "luck we have:-)
Sorry
Gordy
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 11:48 PM
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So now we're up to "moronic" and "reckless"? You are starting to sound like the guy who inspired me to quit my old club, Gordy.

How on earth could use of the throttle stick for the throttle be dangerous? What about guys flying rudder/elevator gliders with a basic 3 or 4 channel radio? Are they moronic or reckless? And what about the new pilot who simply isn't up to controlling a sailplane with an on/off motor? Is it not more dangerous for them to be flying a plane that can turn and bite them?

Mostly though; I disagree with your bold proclamation that one should never use the motor after the initial climb and never use the throttle stick for throttle. This kind of thing can cause a learner to neglect things like practicing landing approaches.

It's a hobby, Gordy. It's meant to be fun. Depending on mood and ability it can be exhilarating, relaxing, or both but reaching for a switch or slider can make it a lot harder to relax. As you noted; I title this thread "soaring hints". I did not title it "soaring rules".

Aerobatics are fun with any plane. They are also damned good practice for recovering a plane from a mistake. Plus; a simple spin, with or without a windmilling prop to keep the speed even lower, is a great way to lose altitude after specking one's sailplane. I consider aerobatics to be as much a part of flying a sailplane as they are with a 3D ship and learning aerobatic flying is, IMHO, essential to the task.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 11:51 PM
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BTW, Gordy. I do most of my flying from a park that has streets in the vicinity. I don't fly over said streets for safety reasons but that also means that I sometimes have to abandon a thermal that blows too far into the danger area. Sometimes I like to do a couple more climbs to find lift within my box.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 01:03 AM
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Oh Dear , Peter and Gordy, what have you done. I thought this thread was going to be as pure as the morning breeze. Now give each other a pat on the bottom and make up.
One thing I did not think of,was, flying a glider without motor. I'd be reaching for the throttle everytime I got close to the deck. But I must say ,I'm using the motor a lot less. Anyway keep all the info . There's going to be a lot of good stuff here.

A gent in my club has a Graupner 3m maxisport for sale . Very tempting.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 05:03 AM
turn, turn, turn.
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Gordy,
I have my throttle on a spring loaded switch... and I use my throttle stick for flaps and Crow.

Thing is, my throttle stick is down for off flaps, and up for on flaps.
Totally backwards to the classic style.

I have gotten quite accustomed to it...
Are there any problems with this that you see, besides handing my radio over to another pilot?
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 05:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post

Thing is, my throttle stick is down for off flaps, and up for on flaps.
Totally backwards to the classic style.
Throttle stick has always been the same as yours even way back when I started in string launch RES 40 years ago. I didn't know there was a "classic style", seems backwards to me. Motor is on a switch here too with electric launch. Motor on to climb, then shut off on altitude switch and it don't get turned back on until next launch.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:21 AM
turn, turn, turn.
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Originally Posted by Leadchucker View Post
Throttle stick has always been the same as yours even way back when I started in string launch RES 40 years ago. I didn't know there was a "classic style", seems backwards to me. Motor is on a switch here too with electric launch. Motor on to climb, then shut off on altitude switch and it don't get turned back on until next launch.
Quite honestly I don't see the reason to use the throttle stick as a speed control... probably because I had never thought of flaps as going slower, I always thought of flaps as giving more lift.

In DLG!, I use a little bit of flaps to extend the glide... by increasing the lift.

In a way, to me, a little bit of flaps make a longer flight, which means faster to me... even though I know that flaps slow a plane down.

Anyway, I wonder if I'm doing my 12 year old son a disservice by teaching him this method.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 09:38 AM
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Since I appear to be the only one who objects to users dictating to others and then calling them names for not doing things their way? I guess I have to be the one to drop the subject. I think I'll take a step back, fly some 3D, visit a few political sites where the personal attacks are expected, and sincerely hope that no one loses a finger or an eye from bumping the throttle switch.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 10:09 AM
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Pete, dont let his type get your goat. I find his gas annoying, but feel that by responding to him I will feed his ego problem. Soared over 5 continents, sorry just not good enough for my idol worship. Must think he is the Tiger Woods of R/C....
On with the show


Next tip...get one glider and fly the covering off of it. Learn how to make it do exactly what you want it to do, when and where you want it to do that. It's hard to stay with one plane for very long - but your learning will show the benefits.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 10:36 AM
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Er, Kenny, your'e forgetting that full house gliders have flaps that are deployed as brakes (usually in what is known as "Crow" or "Butterfly" mode). Camber change is what your'e talking about, and that's a whole different thing (and control).

The "conventional" approach (as in most people do it this way but no-one says you have to do the same do what you like who cares just don't expect someone to ever take the sticks from you) for gliders with power assist is to have crow braking on the "throttle" stick (UP for no brakes, DOWN for MAX BRAKES), and the motor controlled by a seperate switch. Camber control usually is on a slider with a neutral indent. The UP for fast, DOWN for slow approach mimics (broadly speaking) how the throttle stick is used in a power plane, so moving from one type of plane to another is more intuitive if you use this method. But, again, do what you like, just don't expect others to do the same...

Chris
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 03:04 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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Er, Kenny, your'e forgetting that full house gliders have flaps that are deployed as brakes (usually in what is known as "Crow" or "Butterfly" mode). Camber change is what your'e talking about, and that's a whole different thing (and control).

The "conventional" approach (as in most people do it this way but no-one says you have to do the same do what you like who cares just don't expect someone to ever take the sticks from you) for gliders with power assist is to have crow braking on the "throttle" stick (UP for no brakes, DOWN for MAX BRAKES), and the motor controlled by a seperate switch. Camber control usually is on a slider with a neutral indent. The UP for fast, DOWN for slow approach mimics (broadly speaking) how the throttle stick is used in a power plane, so moving from one type of plane to another is more intuitive if you use this method. But, again, do what you like, just don't expect others to do the same...

Chris
Thanks.
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Old Nov 14, 2012, 03:08 PM
turn, turn, turn.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterlngh View Post
Since I appear to be the only one who objects to users dictating to others and then calling them names for not doing things their way? I guess I have to be the one to drop the subject. I think I'll take a step back, fly some 3D, visit a few political sites where the personal attacks are expected, and sincerely hope that no one loses a finger or an eye from bumping the throttle switch.
I think we all find it somewhat annoying.. but it doesn't really bother me.

I try not to let it affect whether or not I am polite back... I always try and be polite.

Maybe it's just a tongue in cheek teaching device, and politeness is the appropriate response.
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Last edited by Kenny Sharp; Nov 15, 2012 at 04:28 PM.
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