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Old Sep 21, 2012, 06:23 AM
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Jan, im planning to use it in my Eurocopter Tiger, since the provided raised tail
gone be under heavy pressure running 3 blade tailrotor and I read that some of this had gearmeltdown, anyway ordered it for evaluation and hope it feels better
than the original plastic that comes with the kit, from what I has seen on pictures
it looks nice, also the adjustable angle is ++

Cheers
Jack
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jack Söderberg View Post
Jan, im planning to use it in my Eurocopter Tiger, since the provided raised tail
gone be under heavy pressure running 3 blade tailrotor and I read that some of this had gearmeltdown, anyway ordered it for evaluation and hope it feels better
than the original plastic that comes with the kit, from what I has seen on pictures
it looks nice, also the adjustable angle is ++

Cheers
Jack
Hi Jack,

The photo's you see on Kin his website about the raised tail gear are mine
The gears used look like the same as the stock Align ESP 600 size gears and the horizontal crown gears looks like the stock Align, (they fit without a problem) only the crown gear between the two horizontal gears looks like a modified Align gear (tail gear unit) tail-shaft gear) and with those helis they do also hard 3D

As you maybe know, I used it in my Apache with a four blade tail rotor with 100mm scale blades successfully.
But the unit is not indented to do hard 3D but for scale flying.

Jan,
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Old Sep 21, 2012, 08:42 AM
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In that case jan...very good....and thanks for sharing pics,always better to see whats bought..

Cheers
Jack
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 05:04 AM
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Hi Guys,

I just ordered the TFSP-200 unit from TFmodels so I give it a try if this unit will do the job and I think it will, I'm just wondering how well it will fit inside the tail area. I have made a plug to simulate the motor dimensions and it looks like it will just fit or almost.
Well I have to wait till I have it.

Then the X-Copter four-blade head has arrived so I can start to build up the mechanics I want to let the main rotor turn CCW (counter clock wise)
And the tail rotor tilted under a angle off 20 degree, when doing this the tail rotor will also lift the heavy tail so it will help to fly this bird better.
I just wondering how to set the CG proper now because normal you set your CG with a not running Heli and you try to adjust the CG with your battery's and (hopes not) lead.
Now we have the situation when the rotors starts to turn and the heli starts to get airborne the CG is shifting to the front caused by the lift generated trough the angled tail rotor.
The best way to start is setting the CG normal and looks how she behaves.
The testing will be done in a Pot and Boom setup, its not the same as in the fuselage but the big mistakes or problems can better be experienced at the outside of the fuse.

Will be back,

Jan,
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 05:23 AM
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Hey Jan,

It is possible to make a rough estimation of your "CG-shift".
It will be rough estimate, but most likely accurate enough.
It seems to be OK to balance a bit tail heavy with a lifting component in the tail thrust: Vario advises to keep the NOTAR heli's tail heavy because that system also pushes the tail upwards

If you want, I can make some calculations.
I need some data for that:
-Estimated power consumption (Volts x Amps)
-Estimated take off weight (including fuselage)
-Expected Rotor RPM
-length of tail boom (distance between main shaft and tail rotor shaft)
-Downward angle of tail rotor

It is not too complicated, just a lot of numbercrunching

Just let me know,

Brgds, Bert
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 08:40 AM
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Hi Bert,

Thanks for the call last time, but as I explained to you I'm not ready yet and I can not give you all the answers.

MicroHelies has send the angled tail unit so I can test that and the TF tail unit is also send, so I can try both solutions now.

The gears in the SM drive will get the upgraded 700size gears when Kin has them ready I will also upgrade the gears than in my Apache, Kin was also looking to a stronger output gear what Align uses.
Because if all the other parts are become stronger (SM 700size gears)
Then the only week part is the remaining 600 size stock Align crown wheel out put gear.
So the angled gear has to wait if I'm wise but I want to try it how it works because the angled gear has a output ratio of 1 to 1,25 so I can lower my head-speed back to the 1000 or 1100 rpm I'm heading for while keeping the tail happy.

Then I have also the TF gear (when it arrives) what has the benefit that I do not need to use the gears at all, but its a bit heavy in the tail, and its maybe sticking (to much) out the tail side so there is a lot to find out the coming period.

Will be back,

Jan,
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Old Oct 28, 2012, 08:08 AM
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Hi guys,

I have received the Angled gear from MicroHelies from Germany and two weeks later the TF direct drive tailgear.

I start with the very nice made angled gear from MicroHelies, on theer website they have the same angled gear however not with the possibility to fit your tube directly on it.
I discussed this with them and they have made a prototype who can directly used on a ESP 600 mechanics

Here the photo's of it,





Its completely made out of Carbon fiber and feels very strong and its very light in weight, (sorry forgotten to weight it)

Then I attached the raised tail tube to check the fitting and holding power of the clamps, and I can tell its more than able for the job the tube is clamps very tight and I was not able to rotate it by hand..



When it arrives it was already build up and I must tell that the gear was not running smooth at all but I discover that the ball-bearings (same as the used in the output tail gear from Align)
where'd mount very precise and they wobble a bit, after fixing this miner problem the gears running smooth

Then it was time to see if it will fit inside the tail, and that was a bit of a disappointment however not impossible.

Here you see the tail where it must fit.


Here you see the first problem,





And now the angle against the tail isn't zero yet,



Also the gear needs to be moved more to the front of the tail what is also not possible caused by the shape of the gear.


You need to cut out this area,



And this areas,



This the gear with the tube attached,

This corner of the gear are the problem,



And then you need to cut out this area,


Its for this tail as it is now not the most easy solution.
The gear itself will do the job.



So I have decided that I don't want to use this gear not only because it will needs some mayor work on the tail but I still need to use all the gears and stuff to drive this unit.

Besides that the gears looks and feels fine and up for the job but I did not test it on a heli and flown it.

MicroHelis are taking a look at there gear if they can find a solution for this problem.

Next I will discus the TF gear,

Kind regards,

Jan,
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Old Oct 28, 2012, 10:05 AM
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Is it just me or does it seem like the main boom is too long, forcing the upper boom to come up at a very sharp angle instead of parallel to the leading edge of the vertical tail? What would the positioning of the tail housing be like if you removed the upper boom from the main boom and put it in right up against the front edge of the vertical tail? Just thinking out loud here. Take care.

Don
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Old Oct 28, 2012, 10:20 AM
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Jan, regarding the Tf model Imds..I have ordered another one unit, also the tailless mainmech from Tf, gone try to use both in my forthcoming Seaking, the fin is very small at the seaking but in worst case gone put the tailmotor inside the fuse connected to a flexwire.

Im very pleased with the looks of the system and hope it gone suite well for the application.

Cheers
Jack
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Old Oct 28, 2012, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
Is it just me or does it seem like the main boom is too long, forcing the upper boom to come up at a very sharp angle instead of parallel to the leading edge of the vertical tail? What would the positioning of the tail housing be like if you removed the upper boom from the main boom and put it in right up against the front edge of the vertical tail? Just thinking out loud here. Take care.

Don
Don,

You can not see it, but I did not connect the main boon to the raised tail boom,
Even I would see that its to long then
Here you can see its hitting the back of the tail from the fuse



No hard feelings

Jack,

I have the TF gear and I'm putting it in the tail already. Details are coming soon.

Jan,
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 08:23 AM
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As promised now the TF gear,

This is what you get, a motor, ESC, Tailrotor and cables the screws for attaching the motor and tailrotor are missing.



The dimensions,







The tail unit weights 124 gram so not that heavy but when mounted in the tail you can feel it very well that there is something mounted in the back

Here you see that it almost fit but you need to make some room for it,



I do not use the tube insert because the unit must be mounted under 20 degree angle so I cut the above part off.





I drilled two holes in it to be able to mount it on a wooden frame.


This the wooden block made under 20 degree angle and at the back the nuts glued in place.



Here you see the block tack glued in the tail,



Finding the right angle,



And this the outside view and almost correct now,



And so its looks now,




The tail itself needs some grinding to mount it correct on the front fuselage because the left side needs a gap of 2mm to get the tail in the correct position.



but that will be done shortly.



Now I need to think about how I want to make the linkage to the tail slider, direct with a rod to the tail servo back in the tail or use a Sullivan gold cable/or rods and steer it from the front of the fuse what I like the most at the CG point of view.

The mounting of this setup was done in less than two hours
I know the electrical and linkage setup will take a lot more time.

Kind regards,

Jan
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 08:34 AM
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Looking good Jan
The hole in the fin you can cover up with some alumesh and paint in suitable colur,as you wrote me to gone to use the sullivan rods with innertubes for controlling the tailpitch,glued correctly inside the tail this is a very good solution as it can be placed effortless and easy in place,today mine tf model non tail mechanics arrived,have mounted it together and it looks and feels very small and solide,gone post some pics in a nearby future.

Cheers
Jack
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 09:50 AM
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Seeing the complete picture now, your choice looks to be a good one. If there was one suggestion I could offer, it may be a good idea to re-enforce the vetical tail so that the mount will not create a fatigue point at the bottom of that wood block. If you had that planned already, I might have jumped the gun. I am keeping an interested eye on this one as it looks to be a winner. Take care.

Don
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 10:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keyrigger View Post
Seeing the complete picture now, your choice looks to be a good one. If there was one suggestion I could offer, it may be a good idea to re-enforce the vetical tail so that the mount will not create a fatigue point at the bottom of that wood block. If you had that planned already, I might have jumped the gun. I am keeping an interested eye on this one as it looks to be a winner. Take care.

Don
Thats a good one Don I will reinforce that area because when I tested it it can twist a bit in the epoxy of the tail,

Thanks for mention it

Jan,
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Old Oct 29, 2012, 11:28 AM
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Jan, that looks nice. The motor would in cases where it would stick out of the fin (for example a BO 105) even more or less look like a (slightly big) gearbox, I am surprised by the good looks of it.

For the tail control, I would strongly suggest a ballraced bellcrank in the bottom of the fin, and two carbon pushrods for tail control.
Compared to a sullivan cable it is a bit more work, but it will noticeably make life easier on your gyro, so you will have better, crisper tail control.

I have my share of experiences with helicopters with raised tails, and in all of them I have this arrangements now. In three of them I have tried some form of bowdencable (as is the Sullivan cable) control because it was originally designed like that, but none of the cable controlled helicopters would steer really good. Those I all have modified to pushrod, and with the pushrod and bellcrank all of them were OK.

It is not unflyable with a cable, just much better with solid rods.

Brgds, Bert
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