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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:59 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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I got some infractions for telling a couple of people they were talking rubbish. Months after I said this, I got points. I also got a point for calling a racist an idiot. Finally, I got 3 point for over reporting.

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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
Gerry-

Apparently I cannot reply to you directly because rcgroups is telling me you have violated forums rules. What did you do?

Anyway, by teaching a beginner to use the left stick to turn with the rudder on a 3-channel plane (and having the right stick control elevator only), does not cause problems down the road, just because you add a 4th channel on the right stick to control ailerons.
It does. All you will do is ingrain muscle memory to the left thumb, only for them to have to unlearn when they switch to 4ch, especially, if they want to get a 4ch without a rudder.

Forget about what surface is the primary roll one, rudder or aileron, it's completely irrelevant, what matters is that the right thumb is taught to be the primary roll controller.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 01:00 PM
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+1 and AMEN!!
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 01:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gerry__
I got some infractions for telling a couple of people they were talking rubbish. Months after I said this, I got points. I also got a point for calling a racist an idiot. Finally, I got 3 point for over reporting.
I don't understand why they are punishing US for that. It is very frustrating.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 01:08 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
I don't understand why they are punishing US for that. It is very frustrating.
Me neither.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by chucksolo69 View Post
Man, you are making it way too technical; perhaps that's why your older students are having a hard time. I also trained with RealFlight 6 and jasmine is right..............we ain't in the freaking Airforce. Like I said, I learned on 3 channel planes and always thought of the right stick as directional. Learning to taxi on the ground was a no brainer. BTW - I am in my late 50's. It just isn't that hard................I just don't get why so many make a big deal out of this. It is really confusing too because most instructors I know start a turn with aileron action and coordinate it with rudder for a smoother turn.............now you come in and say the EXACT opposite. No wonder your students are confused!! BTW - I applaud your accomplishments and thank you for your service, but, your method is not necessarily right and ours is not necessarily wrong.
I don't talk about much of these technical things at all to new students. Right now I am on a forum talking with experienced pilots who have advanced beyond having any issues, so that is why I am being more technical.

Also, the students I am dealing with who are having difficulties are specifically the ones who started with the "rudder on the right" setup, and who are now transitioning to 4-channel, with the rudder (and steering) on the left, and finding it confusing

As far as me talking about controlling an aircraft using rudder to yaw, and opposite aileron to compensate; I would never try to teach a newbie this, because it is a more advanced type of flying.

There are many ways to control an aircraft, but to do it better than the average park flyer, it is best to eventually master all controls, and to know how each surface affects flight.

For example, under what circumstances would you perform a coordinated turn around a point by putting in right aileron, right rudder and negative elevator? Answer: While doing inverted backwards flight in a heli. If you try to do it any other way, it won't work! So if you think turning a plane with rudder and using opposite aileron to compensate is difficult, I assure you there are aircraft and levels of skill above and beyond what you are used to flying at.

When I fly a full-sized aircraft, I do initiate the turn with aileron, and then "step on the ball" with the rudder pedals. However, with certain rc aircraft, I do the exact opposite, because I want the resulting flight video to have only mild bank angles, but high turn rates. If you ever fly FPV, you will soon discover that if you fly with only ailerons and elevator to turn (which is how most rc'ers fly), you will spend most of your time looking at the horizon at 80 degrees bank.

But again, we are talking advance flying here. I don't get into these conversations with people I am training. They would not understand, anyway.

My solution to the whole 3 or 4 channel dilemma would be, as I said, have everyone train on 4-channel to start. That would be ideal.

That's it for now. I don't post much on these groups because I am usually busy flying, and don't have much time for typing.

My battery charger has just alerted me that my 450 X battery is ready for another flight. Also, there is a small lake forming near some railroad tracks about 3km from my runway which I want to fly out to in order to do some aerial recon with my FPV Skywalker. Should make for some great video!

I will come back and talk again in 2-3 weeks, after I have another 100 hours of actual flight hours logged.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 01:48 PM
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Gerry-

This is a very simple concept. A person who learns to control an aircraft with 3 channels, with rudder and steering on the left, does NOT have to "unlearn" anything when a new dimension of flight (ailerons) is added. Such a person can continue controlling his plane just fine using rudder on the left as he continues to learn a new, very similar skill of controlling the y-axis with an additional control surface channel (ailerons).

There is no "unlearning" to be done.

That said, I DO understand we are in a completely different era of aviation. With the simulators we have available today, and chep RTF planes, I totally understand that my methods of teaching may be dated. Someday soon, rc'ers may really only have to know where the "Turn" stick is located to fly around without crashing.

My FPV plane has over $1000 of equipment on board, including an autopilot. The autopilot can keep the plane in level flight at the same exact altitude indefinitely, and to turn all you have to do is press the aileron or rudder stick over all the way and it maintains a perfect bank, and returns to level flight when you let go.

The military is making huge advances in aircraft. For example, did you know the Predator drones are going to be replaced soon with the RQ-4 Global Hawk? The RQ-4 will not even need a pilot to control it. All it needs is a set of coordinates. You push a button, it takes off by itself, flies by GPS to it's target, destroys things autonomously, and returns and lands all by itself. The military has zero plans on the table for building aircraft which carry actual pilots. Everything is going autonomous.

So take heart. In 10 years you will not have to know what an aileron is, or how a rudder can turn a plane. You will be able to take your rc plane out to the flying field, set it down anywhere, turn it on, press the "Takeoff" button, and then watch as it flies around performing aerobatics autonomously and then lands itself when the batteries run low.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 01:49 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post

Also, the students I am dealing with who are having difficulties are specifically the ones who started with the "rudder on the right" setup, and who are now transitioning to 4-channel, with the rudder (and steering) on the left, and finding it confusing
What's to get confused about? They can already fly a 3ch, right? So, now all they need to learn is the very simple matter of ground handling, before moving on to cross controlling and all that advanced stuff. I can't see any reason why learning 3ch, rudder right stick, is holding them back, beyond the fact that you seem to want to get them to initiate a turn with rudder. There really is no need to 'torture' them this way.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 02:08 PM
Fatalities caused by FPV: Zero
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Here is a very torturous video I made of some FPV flying with my Skywalker where all turns were done with rudder, and using opposite aileron to counteract the over-rolling tendencies which high-dihedral wings have.

This technique is used to maintain a shallow, 10-20 degree banking angle, while maintaining a high turn rate. This way of turning is ideal when I am trying to make a graceful, soaring type of video, and it cannot be accomplished any other way, with this airframe.

Newport Beach GoPro FPV Skywalker - Send Me An Angel (6 min 0 sec)


Thanks for the discussion, guys, now I REALLY have to go for now!
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 02:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
For example, under what circumstances would you perform a coordinated turn around a point by putting in right aileron, right rudder and negative elevator? Answer: While doing inverted backwards flight in a heli.
Incorrect. Helicopters do not have elevators, ailerons, or rudders. And furthermore, when in inverted backwards flight, you use back pressure on the cyclic in a turn if you have any airspeed. You are saying it's important to learn to think about the control surfaces, but then you say this? I'm confused.

I think you are starting to understand that it's about behavior, not about surface movement. That is why we use the terms elevator and aileron with helicopters in spite of them not having those surfaces - because we want the student to think about the behavior, and we assume they are familiar with the desired behavior of ailerons and elevators. So, we talk about the helicopter using inaccurate terms because those terms aren't what is important. Similar with airplanes - it is simply not important what surface is causing the behavior - it is only important that you are going into a turn, and you do that with the right stick. Hell, hook up the right stick to the rudder and CALL it the ailerons - the student won't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
This is a very simple concept. A person who learns to control an aircraft with 3 channels, with rudder and steering on the left, does NOT have to "unlearn" anything when a new dimension of flight (ailerons) is added.
And a person who learns to control the airplane with their steering control on the right stick doesn't have to unlearn that. Honestly I do not understand why you're placing more value on ground handling than air handling. I know that we can't have a proper balance unless we go 4-channel, but why skew the issue in favor of the ground situation?
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
Also, the students I am dealing with who are having difficulties are specifically the ones who started with the "rudder on the right" setup, and who are now transitioning to 4-channel, with the rudder (and steering) on the left, and finding it confusing
.
Say what???

The RIGHT stick is the MAIN TURNING/ROLL control. Why would one care whether it moved the two flaps on the main wing or the vertical flap on the tail... IT MAKES NO difference.

Need an example of why I say this. Here you go;;; I fly 4 ch planes all day long and a few 3 as well ALL with the MAIN turning/roll control on the right stick.

Now I'm flying my Phoenix Sim and one of the new planes happens to be the Easy Star, a 3ch 'beginners' plane that I have and occasionally still fly. I hand the controller to my 11 y/o grandson to fly. He says it won't turn. sure enough when you move the right stick it won't turn. Being a 3ch the nitwits at Phoenix kept the 'rudder' on the left stick... I can't fly it worth a hoot. And neither can anybody else.

You totally lose every bit of muscle memory that's been built up training your right thumb to add back pressure on the RIGHT stick as you apply left/right pressure to turn...

And that muscle memory needs to be learned while on a 3ch plane...How are you going to learn that when the rudder is on the left stick and the elevator is on the right??? IMPOSSIBLE...

Much more important than re-learning ground handling. Unless you intend to drive your plane around on the ground more than fly in the air
You REALLY teach that way???
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 02:57 PM
Fatalities caused by FPV: Zero
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
Incorrect. Helicopters do not have elevators, ailerons, or rudders. And furthermore, when in inverted backwards flight, you use back pressure on the cyclic in a turn if you have any airspeed. You are saying it's important to learn to think about the control surfaces, but then you say this? I'm confused.
To initiate backwards inverted flight, you need negative elevator if you are going to move anywhere, otherwise you are hovering (when I say negative elevator, I mean push forward on the cyclic). To pull yourself around the turn, positive elevator is required (pulling back on the cyclic).

I could say left cyclic, right cyclic, and forward and back cyclic, but I didn't want to befuddle the already confused masses. I didn't know we had someone that might actually know what the term "dynamic rollover" might possibly mean... My apologies.

That said, it is common to refer to the controls of a helicopter in the same sense as the controls of an airplane. There is nothing wrong about using "right aileron" to talk about "right cyclic", at least when you are dealing with rc amateurs.

For example, I just bought a brand new E-Flite Blade 450 X heli for $500. It is considered to be a helicopter that should only be flown by "Advanced" heli pilots (although I do not consider myself to be advanced, but a novice). Yet, in the instruction manual, they use the terms "Cyclic" and "Aileron", and "Elevator" interchangeably. Below is only one example from the manual:
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
Say what???

The RIGHT stick is the MAIN TURNING/ROLL control. Why would one care whether it moved the two flaps on the main wing or the vertical flap on the tail... IT MAKES NO difference.
The "two flaps" are called ailerons, and the "vertical flap" is called a rudder. It does make a difference to those who know how to use them simultaneously.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
Now I'm flying my Phoenix Sim and one of the new planes happens to be the Easy Star, a 3ch 'beginners' plane that I have and occasionally still fly. I hand the controller to my 11 y/o grandson to fly. He says it won't turn. sure enough when you move the right stick it won't turn. Being a 3ch the nitwits at Phoenix kept the 'rudder' on the left stick... I can't fly it worth a hoot. And neither can anybody else.
So if the wizards at Phoenix (one of the best, if not THE best flight sims out there) have set up a 3-channel trainer this way (with rudder and nosewheel on left), and you cannot fly it, are they the ones who are wrong? I could fly it no problem, and so could anyone I teach.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
And that muscle memory needs to be learned while on a 3ch plane...How are you going to learn that when the rudder is on the left stick and the elevator is on the right??? IMPOSSIBLE...
I can agree with this, for beginners, except the "impossible" part.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rtbates View Post
Much more important than re-learning ground handling. Unless you intend to drive your plane around on the ground more than fly in the air
You REALLY teach that way???
I do not teach people to fly 3-channel airplanes. I use a 4-channel Xtra Easy to teach people to fly, or I use their own 4-channel plane.

As I said, I am trying to teach a couple guys who started out with 3-channel airplanes incorrectly the proper ways to take-off and land without rolling their planes on or near the ground!
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 03:26 PM
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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post

As I said, I am trying to teach a couple guys who started out with 3-channel airplanes incorrectly the proper ways to take-off and land without rolling their planes on or near the ground![/COLOR]
I see, so this involves them learning to taxi. This should take them all of 10-minutes to completely master. Like-wise, adding a bit of rudder for take-off, is just building on the skills they already have.

I think you're methods are too rigid and unintuitive if you are unable to comfortably convert a 3ch pilot to 4ch.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 03:26 PM
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How did they start out "incorrectly" on a 3 channel plane? Here's my example for tansition from 3 to 4 channel.

Once I mastered my HZ 3 channel planes I got a Parkzone T-28 Trojan and as usual was really apprehensive about flying it thinking,.........."Oh my, ailerons, they are really going to make this plane hard to fly." Why did I think this? Mainly because I had been readin all the stuff on this and other fourms about how difficult it would be to go from rudder only to ailerons. Then, I was in bed one night thinking about it as I was going to fly my Trojan the following morning, then it hit me. What difference does it make what turns the plane. I know the plane is going to be more sensitive to stick input because it is a low wing warbird and not a high wing trainer with plenty of dihedral, and that was all. The real truth was that the sensitivity of the stick and NOT the actual control surface was what I had to deal with. Enter my DX6i and dual rates and expo. Once I got that dialed in...........no problems at all. In fact, when ever I fly my 3 channel planes, I have to remind myself to taxi with the right stick on these; yes, I still fly those I haven't given away. But in no way has this issue ever caused me to crash a plane. In fact the only crashes I have had were due to equipment failure of some sort.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 03:31 PM
Fatalities caused by FPV: Zero
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I think you guys have it all figured out.

-regards
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