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Old Sep 13, 2012, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post

I have watched more than one beginner first learn on a 3-channel foamy, and then struggle with learning 4-channel because the rudder suddenly gets moved to the left side.

The main reason it is so difficult is NOT because the aircraft performs differently in the air necessarily, but because of ground handling.

When a person who has learned to skillfully taxi, take off, and then land a 3-channel taildragger (using the right stick for turning in the air AND on the ground), then tries the same manuevers with a 4-channel, they end up with a wingtip digging into the turf time after time. The reason is because they are used to steering with the right-hand stick when on the ground.
I don't believe that passing ground handling from right to left is that hard. 10-minutes on a simulator should be all a normal person will need.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 11:38 AM
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I believe you are completely right Gerry_; so many people make such a big deal out of this. Besides, how fast should you be going during a taxi or after touch down to really make this an issue?
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 11:47 AM
Fatalities caused by FPV: Zero
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
And, is it really better to teach them the wrong flying method to avoid that mistake?
Are you suggesting that learning to fly an airplane around using only rudder, and using the left stick for turning with said rudder is "wrong flying method"? I would disagree with you on this.

I have two aircraft in my fleet which are both 4-channel planes. They are both high-wing trainer-type aircraft. One is a .40 sized nitro that I upgraded to .60 which I use for training others. The other one is my FPV aircraft. Even though both have ailerons, I generally fly them around using rudder control, and I use the ailerons to compensate for the undesired roll which occurs when holding constant rudder.

The reason I fly this way is mostly preference. I like my turns to have a shallower bank angle, because it looks more realistic, especially when I am flying FPV and have an in-the-cockpit view. My HD in-flight videos look better with a shallower banking angle.

In addition, most RC pilots don't realize that the bank angles they use when turning are effective, yet highly unrealistic-looking and extreme when compared to full-sized planes. (This is fact. I fly full-sized aircraft, too)

Based on your argument, I would venture to guess that you do not use rudder at all when performing a coordinated turn. To me, that is "wrong flying method".

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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
The only solution really is to start people on 4-channel trainers.
Agreed.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 11:56 AM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
Are you suggesting that learning to fly an airplane around using only rudder, and using the left stick for turning with said rudder is "wrong flying method"? I would disagree with you on this.

I have two aircraft in my fleet which are both 4-channel planes. They are both high-wing trainer-type aircraft. One is a .40 sized nitro that I upgraded to .60 which I use for training others. The other one is my FPV aircraft. Even though both have ailerons, I generally fly them around using rudder control, and I use the ailerons to compensate for the undesired roll which occurs when holding constant rudder.

The reason I fly this way is mostly preference. I like my turns to have a shallower bank angle, because it looks more realistic, especially when I am flying FPV and have an in-the-cockpit view. My HD in-flight videos look better with a shallower banking angle.

In addition, most RC pilots don't realize that the bank angles they use when turning are effective, yet highly unrealistic-looking and extreme when compared to full-sized planes. (This is fact. I fly full-sized aircraft, too)

Based on your argument, I would venture to guess that you do not use rudder at all when performing a coordinated turn. To me, that is "wrong flying method".



Agreed.
Really? Then I'm surprised you haven't worked out why models generally exhibit higher bank angles than 1:1. There is nothing unrealistic about this.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:00 PM
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You are making the mistake of thinking about flight in terms of control surfaces instead of aircraft behavior. I'm not going to rehash it. Suffice it to say I want my students to learn how to control aircraft behavior, not how to operate surfaces. So, I will continue to use the rudder on right stick method with three channel planes and you can't stop me
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:05 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
You are making the mistake of thinking about flight in terms of control surfaces instead of aircraft behavior. I'm not going to rehash it. Suffice it to say I want my students to learn how to control aircraft behavior, not how to operate surfaces. So, I will continue to use the rudder on right stick method with three channel planes and you can't stop me
And that is the only sensible way of doing it. Why on Earth would you force someone to fly rudder left stick only for them to have to unlearn all that just to make taxiing easier on a 4ch?

It makes zero sense.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by chucksolo69 View Post
Quit thinking aileron and rudder; that's the main problem.
Really? That statement is nonsense. To teach a beginner the fundamentals of flight from the beginning is essential, in my opinion.

Anybody can learn from a simulator to operate the controls around to keep an airplane pointed away from the earth and in the air, but if you eventually want to advance beyond the eternal novice ranking, a person should at some point learn the difference between a rudder and an aileron.

When I was in the USAF, the first terms we learned were aileron, rudder, elevator, thrust, drag, pitch, yaw, angle of attack, high-speed-stall, etc. That was before we even touched the controls of an aircraft.

If your aileron control all of a sudden gives out (anyone who has NOT had an in-flight servo failure please leave the room, you have not been flying long enough to have a valid opinion here), it will be very helpful for you to know what a rudder does, where it is located, and how to rely on it instead of your malfunctioning ailerons. To have practiced flying a plane using only rudder control (on the left) is even better.

I learned rc flying on a 4-channel trainer that I built myself, and within 4 hours I was taking off and landing without any help. Also, the first time I stepped into a real aircraft I was 16. It was a Cessna, and I was in the left seat. After the instructor showed me where the throttle was, I was able to take off and fly around with no help from him at all, and I would have landed it fine, IMHO, but he took the controls at the last moment to ensure a perfect flare.

Of course, I learned all the fundamentals from books in the months before all this, back when the Internet was known as ARPANET, and there was no such thing as $100 EPO RTF trainers. It took me 6 months to build my first trainer from balsa wood in 1984, and you better believe I knew the difference between a rudder and an aileron before that thing left the ground!
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by chucksolo69 View Post
I believe you are completely right Gerry_; so many people make such a big deal out of this. Besides, how fast should you be going during a taxi or after touch down to really make this an issue?
Well, Chuck, if you are about to take off, your speed will be V2 min, and if you are about to land, your speed will be Vs. If you don't know the difference between the two, you have much to learn in this exciting hobby!

P.S. Both speeds can easily cause damage to a plane if wrong control input is given.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:15 PM
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Except, my students are not in the freekin Air Force, they are flying RC. I teach what they need to know. I understand your logic, I just don't agree with it.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:20 PM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
Well, Chuck, if you are about to take off, your speed will be V2 min, and if you are about to land, your speed will be Vs. If you don't know the difference between the two, you have much to learn in this exciting hobby!

P.S. Both speeds can easily cause damage to a plane if wrong control input is given.
Yeah, so? How does forcing people to learn primary roll on the left stick and then unlearn it to fly 4ch do anyone any good? It takes no time at all to learn to taxi. Of course, having a poor instructor is the main reason people get all screwed up.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
Except, my students are not in the freekin Air Force, they are flying RC. I teach what they need to know. I understand your logic, I just don't agree with it.
Logic?
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:31 PM
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Gerry-

Apparently I cannot reply to you directly because rcgroups is telling me you have violated forums rules. What did you do?

Anyway, by teaching a beginner to use the left stick to turn with the rudder on a 3-channel plane (and having the right stick control elevator only), does not cause problems down the road, just because you add a 4th channel on the right stick to control ailerons.

A rudder roll is not a "true roll" if there is such a thing. It will resemble something more along the lines of a barrel roll. If you want to get into 3D flying or pattern flying, to do a true perfect axis roll, you must use ailerons.

So, a beginner who first flies on a 3-channel aircraft, and uses the left stick for throttle and rudder (rudder controls steering on ground and also controls banking in-flight due to having a high dihedral), and uses the right stick for elevator only, will have no issues at all if, say, he adds ailerons to his current trainer and links those surfaces to the movement of the right control stick.

He will still fly as normal, with all the same movements, but hey! What's this? Now if he moves the right stick back and forth, his plane banks and rolls nicer? Cool!
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasmine2501 View Post
You are making the mistake of thinking about flight in terms of control surfaces instead of aircraft behavior. I'm not going to rehash it. Suffice it to say I want my students to learn how to control aircraft behavior, not how to operate surfaces. So, I will continue to use the rudder on right stick method with three channel planes and you can't stop me
I am sure you will have few problems, and create many fine pilots. Some of my students are in their 60's, however, and it is very difficult to get them to learn new tricks. It is harder still to get them to unlearn those learned tricks and relearn new ones, however.

One of my beginners is going through the frustrations of having to remember to steer with the left stick now instead of the right, and for him it is causing "ground rolls" and frustration.

As for simulators, I have RealFlight 6 and consider it essential for learning Heli 3D, but some beginners don't have this luxury.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:48 PM
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Man, you are making it way too technical; perhaps that's why your older students are having a hard time. I also trained with RealFlight 6 and jasmine is right..............we ain't in the freaking Airforce. Like I said, I learned on 3 channel planes and always thought of the right stick as directional. Learning to taxi on the ground was a no brainer. BTW - I am in my late 50's. It just isn't that hard................I just don't get why so many make a big deal out of this. It is really confusing too because most instructors I know start a turn with aileron action and coordinate it with rudder for a smoother turn.............now you come in and say the EXACT opposite. No wonder your students are confused!! BTW - I applaud your accomplishments and thank you for your service, but, your method is not necessarily right and ours is not necessarily wrong.
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Old Sep 13, 2012, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
I am sure you will have few problems, and create many fine pilots. Some of my students are in their 60's, however, and it is very difficult to get them to learn new tricks. It is harder still to get them to unlearn those learned tricks and relearn new ones, however.
Certainly yes, you must tailor your training method to the student, and everyone will be different. I tend to think of my students as pretty smart people though, and I try to do things that make sense from the perspective of aircraft behavior, and I assume that any bad habits someone learns from a 3-channel plane will not become habitual enough to be a problem. That's the instruction mistake I referred before - if you let a wrong behavior become a habit, you have failed as an instructor. So yeah, if the student needs something different, go with it, but I don't deviate from the thing which has worked for a majority of people, until I determine that my student is in the minority of people who have trouble with a certain thing, then I may switch techniques.

BTW - the biggest problem with instruction has nothing to do with airplane setup or flying style. The biggest problem with instruction is trying to force people to learn the same way you did, and never considering whether it's appropriate for them. And, probably the second biggest problem is during the actual training, not giving any positive feedback. When you're on the buddy box with someone, 75% of what you say should be "good" and "yes, do that again" - this makes a bigger difference than anything we're talking about here. Many beginners have no problem recognizing when they mess up, and it doesn't help to yell at them when they do, and yet I see a lot of instructors doing that - barking at the student and flipping the switch.
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