HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Sep 09, 2012, 12:21 AM
Bye Bye VP Aug 2010 - Aug 2012
Gerry__'s Avatar
United Kingdom, London
Joined Jan 2005
5,926 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwolfe View Post
@Gerry_

I understand that the sideslip is not what I've been doing. To perform the crab. I need wind.
Why are you making a video of crabbing?
Gerry__ is offline Find More Posts by Gerry__
RCG Plus Member
Latest blog entry: Foamie Resurrection
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Sep 09, 2012, 08:11 AM
Registered User
cwolfe's Avatar
United States, TX, Spring
Joined Aug 2011
1,947 Posts
LOL! Because I don't fish.
cwolfe is online now Find More Posts by cwolfe
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 09, 2012, 09:55 AM
Which way is up?
stuball56's Avatar
Michigan, USA
Joined Mar 2008
686 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ranandar View Post
This is an interesting topic to me because I have been asked to design a first airplane trainer. I just wish you guys could discuss this without all the butthurt.

My initial belief was that people should learn with four channels, but if for no other reason than marketing, possibly a three channel would be a better choice.

Here are my pros and cons: Four channels fly better, especially in wind. Three channels are easier to fly. Four channels are more expensive to make and more difficult to repair. Three channels can be made more crash resistant. Three channels are more commonly advised as first airplane, therefore the beginner will more likely be looking for that and more people would be suggesting it.

Something that I have not seen mentioned here is the fact that people learn to fly differently now than they did a few years ago. These days most people learn on simulators for both model and full scale. Because of this trend it is possible that beginners will eventually start leaning towards four channels as their first real life model. One thing is certain, the vast majority now learn on their own without the traditional instructor/buddy-box.

I have still not fully decided which way to go on this. I learned to fly with ailerons so I have a bias. My personal aircraft all use ailerons, but this thread has shown me that this may not be best choice for everyone.
That is interesting, because I have only "flown" in RFlight. I am planning on "teaching" myself to fly with a Crack Pitts Biplane. Crazy? Some say yes, but others say it is entirely possible. Should be getting mine in the mail this week, so we will soon see how I do.
stuball56 is offline Find More Posts by stuball56
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 09, 2012, 12:28 PM
Joined Nov 2011
935 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuball56 View Post
That is interesting, because I have only "flown" in RFlight. I am planning on "teaching" myself to fly with a Crack Pitts Biplane. Crazy? Some say yes, but others say it is entirely possible. Should be getting mine in the mail this week, so we will soon see how I do.
It will be a challenge, but you will have a ball! I hope that you ordered plenty of batteries. You can get 5 to 6 minutes on each, but 6 minutes feel like a minute and a half when you are on the Crack.

Be aware that those types are great for aerobatics and 3D training, BUT, there are a lot of skills that they don't teach, and a few habits that you will have to "unlearn" when you move on to other aircraft. For example, when you get into trouble with your Crack the best thing to do is cut the throttle, in nearly every other type that would be the wrong thing to do.

Now I have to say that I don't recommend the path that you are taking in general, but the funny thing is that I just came in from flying my Crack Yak in high(ish) winds and this is the first post that I read. While I was out there I was actually wondering about whether or not I could include it in beginner training, along with other aircraft of course.
Logan4169 is offline Find More Posts by Logan4169
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 09, 2012, 07:32 PM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
3,954 Posts
Holy cow! I can totally understand why you've been seduced by this plane.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...&v=iRJBmp9j8gY

Well, she flies plenty slowly. EPP means she's plenty strong. Buy lots of props. Limit your throttle to under half throttle. Logan's right. You might just succeed. I'm cheering for you!

These profile 3D planes, tuned down and slowed down might be a good way to start.
Rockin Robbins is online now Find More Posts by Rockin Robbins
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 09, 2012, 08:02 PM
Joined Nov 2011
935 Posts
Yes I forgot to mention props. You will need plenty, and also get the heavy duty prop saver bands. The light duty ones don't last at all.
Logan4169 is offline Find More Posts by Logan4169
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 09, 2012, 10:59 PM
Which way is up?
stuball56's Avatar
Michigan, USA
Joined Mar 2008
686 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan4169 View Post
6 minutes feel like a minute and a half when you are on the Crack

Thanks for the info guys. I did order some of the HD bands I do believe, and I ordered 4 of the props, but looks like I may need more. Supposed to arrive on Tuesday and I am looking forward to start the building. So far I have only build a Polaris, out of Depron foam, so hoping that I can use some of what I learned during that process to help me with the building of this plane.
stuball56 is offline Find More Posts by stuball56
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 09, 2012, 11:51 PM
Joined Nov 2011
935 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuball56 View Post

Thanks for the info guys. I did order some of the HD bands I do believe, and I ordered 4 of the props, but looks like I may need more. Supposed to arrive on Tuesday and I am looking forward to start the building. So far I have only build a Polaris, out of Depron foam, so hoping that I can use some of what I learned during that process to help me with the building of this plane.
Four props are good for a start. As far as the experience building the Polaris, it probably won't be much help because you use different glue and techniques. The good news is that they are SUPER EASY to assemble. Mine took about 5 hours, but most of that time is waiting for glue to set enough to move on to the next step. Yours might take a bit longer since it is the bipe. I used Welder glue but I ran out before I was done and finished with Beacon Quick Grip, which I prefer anyway. It is also easier to get, Wal-Mart has it and you can probably find it elsewhere too. Check out the threads for more tips.

One more thing: Surgical scalpel handles ($4 each) and a box of 100 #11 blades ($12) @ Amazon.com. You won't need them for the Crack Pitts, but if you are going to do more depron scratch builds or other foam work you will love them!
Logan4169 is offline Find More Posts by Logan4169
Last edited by Logan4169; Sep 09, 2012 at 11:59 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 11, 2012, 05:44 AM
Registered User
cold wombat's Avatar
Australia, WA, Perth
Joined Jul 2011
287 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cwolfe View Post
LOL! Because I don't fish.
I dunno, I think you did a decent effort at fishing in this thread. Got a couple of nibbles too!

cold wombat is offline Find More Posts by cold wombat
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12, 2012, 10:18 AM
buyer of the farm
United States, FL, DeLand
Joined Mar 2009
3,954 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Logan4169 View Post
and a box of 100 #11 blades ($12) @ Amazon.com. You won't need them for the Crack Pitts, but if you are going to do more depron scratch builds or other foam work you will love them!
A thousand percent approval there. NOTHING helps your attitude better than looking at that box of 100 blades and knowing there's no excuse to stick with a dull blade.
Rockin Robbins is online now Find More Posts by Rockin Robbins
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 12, 2012, 05:21 PM
Learn to build with wood.
Tucci's Avatar
United States, NC, Newport
Joined Sep 2012
826 Posts
Exactly what I intend to do with the plane I just built

If they really wanted to be adventurous they could provide a much flatter aileron wing for sport use after you learn to fly
Tucci is offline Find More Posts by Tucci
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 13, 2012, 10:53 AM
Fatalities caused by FPV: Zero
glassdogangle's Avatar
United States, OR, Springfield
Joined Jun 2011
509 Posts
In my own personal opinion...

If I ruled the world, all 3 channel rc planes AND 3 channel rc helicopters would place the rudder control on the left.

I used to teach people how to fly as part of my employment duties at the local hobby shop way back in the eighties. I have recently taken on more beginning RC'ers voluntarily, just because it is fun and gratifying to teach someone successfully to do something which takes such skill and determination.

I have watched more than one beginner first learn on a 3-channel foamy, and then struggle with learning 4-channel because the rudder suddenly gets moved to the left side.

The main reason it is so difficult is NOT because the aircraft performs differently in the air necessarily, but because of ground handling.

When a person who has learned to skillfully taxi, take off, and then land a 3-channel taildragger (using the right stick for turning in the air AND on the ground), then tries the same manuevers with a 4-channel, they end up with a wingtip digging into the turf time after time. The reason is because they are used to steering with the right-hand stick when on the ground.

It is much easier to learn how to add aileron control using the right stick later on, than to try to UNLEARN steering with the right stick as a beginner advances to 4 channel.

The only possible drawback to this solution would be that a beginner's 2nd aircraft, if it is 4-channel, might be a pattern ship or a jet, and flying it with rudder only at first would be exceedingly difficult.

However, that should not be an issue because the next logical step after a high-dihedral 3-channel should be another high-dihedral airplane with 4-channels (Newbies: A high dihedral airplane is one with wings that bend up at an angle that can be easily flown around and landed without even touching aileron controls).

As for helicopters... I started out with 3-channel, and most designers always do the same thing: They put the tail rotor (yaw) control on the right. This is okay at first when learning. However, for a 4-channel helicopter, where doing simple banking turns requires BOTH aileron AND yaw inputs throughout the entire turn, it is very important to hard-wire your brain to know that the left stick ALWAYS kicks the tail around.

When I advanced from 3-channel to 4-channel helicopters, I had many crashes until I "re-hard-wired" my neurons to use the LEFT stick for yaw control.

Presently, even though I have alot of experience now with airplanes and helis, if I try to fly even a simple 3-channel heli or plane, guess what? I have MAJOR problems! I cannot fly either without extreme concentration, and if I do not crash, it is mostly because I have mastered the technique of MISSED APPROACH!
glassdogangle is offline Find More Posts by glassdogangle
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 13, 2012, 10:58 AM
Fatalities caused by FPV: Zero
glassdogangle's Avatar
United States, OR, Springfield
Joined Jun 2011
509 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by stuball56 View Post
I am learning, so far only on RF. I have built a Polaris, but am getting a trainer first. So why are there trainers with 3 channels? Rudder and elevator only, no ailerons? Seems like if you trained and learned on a 3 channel, then when you go to 4 you wont have a clue on how to control the aircraft using ailerons. I just think for me, anyway, it is far better to have a trainer that is a full 4 channels. I am torn between the Flyzone Switch or the Nexstar Mini EP. Both have thier advantages and disadvantages. I really like both actualy.
I agree with you fully. Whenever a beginner asks me what kind of plane to train on I ALWAYS strongly suggest 4-channel. The cost difference between 3 and 4 channel airplanes is tiny, compared to the potential cost of wrecking a plane due to improper input control because a person learned on 3 channels first (with the rudder on the wrong side of the transmitter).
glassdogangle is offline Find More Posts by glassdogangle
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 13, 2012, 11:05 AM
Rocket Programmer
jasmine2501's Avatar
United States, AZ, Mesa
Joined Jul 2007
25,358 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by glassdogangle View Post
If I ruled the world, all 3 channel rc planes AND 3 channel rc helicopters would place the rudder control on the left.

I used to teach people how to fly as part of my employment duties at the local hobby shop way back in the eighties. I have recently taken on more beginning RC'ers voluntarily, just because it is fun and gratifying to teach someone successfully to do something which takes such skill and determination.

I have watched more than one beginner first learn on a 3-channel foamy, and then struggle with learning 4-channel because the rudder suddenly gets moved to the left side.

The main reason it is so difficult is NOT because the aircraft performs differently in the air necessarily, but because of ground handling.

When a person who has learned to skillfully taxi, take off, and then land a 3-channel taildragger (using the right stick for turning in the air AND on the ground), then tries the same manuevers with a 4-channel, they end up with a wingtip digging into the turf time after time. The reason is because they are used to steering with the right-hand stick when on the ground.


etc....
There is always going to be something that the person has to learn when they step up, and I'd rather have them struggle on the ground than in the air. However, I would say this is an instruction mistake and has very little to do with the proper airplane setup (which is primary steering control on the right). We aren't teaching people to drive, it's the flying that matters. If a person has learned skillful taxi handling with the right stick on a 3-channel trainer, they have learned a bad habit - but is that the fault of the plane, or the student? And, is it really better to teach them the wrong flying method to avoid that mistake?

The only solution really is to start people on 4-channel trainers, but if you aren't going to do that, at least make the plane fly normally.
jasmine2501 is offline Find More Posts by jasmine2501
Reply With Quote
Old Sep 13, 2012, 11:08 AM
Registered User
United States, CA, Oceanside
Joined Apr 2011
4,755 Posts
I had no problem with that whatsoever. I went from a Super Cub to a Trojan T-28. You just have to remember to steer on the ground with the left is all. I guess that it is because I never thought of it as flying with rudder or aileron. I thought of it as just turning or changing direction with the right stick. I haven't wrecked one yet because of this issue. If you just tell a newb, when they transition to 4 channel, to change direction with the right stick and steer on the ground with the left, there would be no problem. This has been debated to death by the way. Quit thinking aileron and rudder; that's the main problem. That's all a noob needs to know at first. Using rudder to coordinate turns can come later as he/she progresses. Jasmine is right of course, if you have an instructor go for the 4 channel; but if you choose to go it alone, a 3 channel trainer is usually the safest bet for the rank beginner.
chucksolo69 is offline Find More Posts by chucksolo69
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion Reversing ailerons with dual aileron setup on DX6i ejohn Radios 3 Oct 01, 2012 11:03 AM
Discussion About to put ailerons on my radian. What do I need? (Servos, etc) qwerty11 Electric Plane Talk 10 Jun 05, 2012 10:24 AM
Question Whats up with the 'Q' and 'S' on the Tx Sculptor Beginner Training Area (Heli-Electric) 9 Mar 30, 2012 03:41 PM
Discussion Tuff Trainer in a Tree... Teacher and Dad's Neighbor's Brother Shows up... what a day DJO Electric Plane Talk 19 Mar 14, 2012 06:15 PM
Discussion Help setting up v-tail function with Eclipse 7 - no ailerons robh Hitec/Multiplex USA 5 May 23, 2009 09:56 AM