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Old Oct 15, 2012, 06:43 AM
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Hi Ted,

Take off mode should work fine, (it doesn't use heading hold). As soon as 70% power is detected (so you need to make sure you have throttle input) it will implement the gain multiplication values for the duration specified. If you have a normal gain set up of say 11 (for a plane of around 1.7 to 2m wingspan) you can have this doubled up for the take off run (or hand launch), the doubling up of the gain will then cancel itself after the time period set. If taking off from a runway then doing this just on the rudder may be all that is necessary.

Going back to HH it is critical that the gyro is initialized to as near zero as possible for this to work. You can check the zero setting on the live data tab. We will also do some further testing of this feature to see what settings work best.
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by IceManPro View Post
Hi Ted,

Take off mode should work fine, (it doesn't use heading hold). As soon as 70% power is detected (so you need to make sure you have throttle input) it will implement the gain multiplication values for the duration specified. If you have a normal gain set up of say 11 (for a plane of around 1.7 to 2m wingspan) you can have this doubled up for the take off run (or hand launch), the doubling up of the gain will then cancel itself after the time period set. If taking off from a runway then doing this just on the rudder may be all that is necessary.
.

Hi Mark,

I had missed this Takeoff Mode discussion until just now. Do I understand that Takeoff Mode provides for a temporary yaw gain increase which automatically goes away after a given time period? This sounds like a potentially great feature. I do have some questions.

1. Does the feature operate in Rate mode or HH or both ?

2. Is the time period adjustable ?

3. How is the feature reset ? In other words, will it re-engage each time the throttle is reduced or is there some specific pilot command required ?

4. Do I understand that a throttle input from the receiver is only necessary to provide timing information for the Takeoff Mode, or is the throttle input used for other reasons ?

Thank you,
Dick
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 12:48 PM
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Hi Mark,

Sorry for so many questions, some of which may be very basic.

1. In RATE mode, is the BL-3G Module operating as simply a "Rate Damping" device, or is it a "Rate Command" device? I suspect the terms are familiar to you, but I will clarify if you wish.

2. Can the BL-3GMod operate in mixed modes ? In other words, can it be operated in HH mode in only one axis while remaining in Rate mode in the other axes ?

3. In Takeoff Mode, can the BL-3GMod switch between modes ? For example, can you do the takeoff event in Yaw HH and then have it switch to Yaw Rate ? Would pitch or roll be at all effected by Takeoff Mode operation ?

Thanks again,

Dick
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by IceManPro View Post
Hi Molnar,

We have fixed the loss of control surface movement with version 2.1, although there will still be a loss for lower than 5 or 6 gain settings, this is fixed in v2.2. We have also added an automatic gain feature in v2.2 that then automatically backs of the gain if oscillations of round 3 or more Hz are detected. See here
you can check the firmware version in either the info tab or the upgrade tab when gyro is connected.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I have now correctly installed v2.2 and it appears to have fixed the gain vs. control throw issue. I was able to verify on the ground that the rates were not reduced even at the lowest possible pot setting for roll.

I was able to flight test it today. Again, the gyro works great at almost full gain for pitch and yaw but at zero gain on the pot for roll the Habu still flutters at speed. Hopefully I can reduce the gain further by software otherwise I'm at a loss for how to fix. Since I didn't bring the laptop with me, I was unable to adjust so testing was done. So close. Other than this flutter issue in roll, the BL-3G seems quite impressive. At slower speeds (like on appoach) it's makes the Habu look like a 737 coming in. Super stable...even with decent wind gusts and thermals. Turn the gyro off and the Habu bounces around like a sub 40oz fomie usually does.

Mike
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 02:32 PM
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2.2 isnt on their website....
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 06:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Brush Hog View Post
2.2 isnt on their website....
Sorry. Meant V2.1.
I changed the rough gain setting to "low" in the Basic menu from the default "Medium". Off to do another flight....

Mike
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 07:41 PM
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Ok so after the 7th test flight I have it more or less dialed in. However, roll is still a problem. Seems even with V2.1 when I back the gain off far enough that it doesn't flutter in the roll axis, I loose contol suface throw. On the ground it's quite evident. Hold the aileron stick hard over and flip the gyro switch on and off and you can immediately see half the aileron throw is taken away when the gyro is on. If you adjust the pot to about 50%, the aileron throw becomes the same whether the gyro switch is on or off but at this gain setting flutter results every time. Lower than 50% on the gain pot and the contol throw differential (gyro on vs gyro off) continues to widen. I've trialed about every adjustment on the radio and gyro I could think of but if I can't separate control surface throw from gyro gain, then I'm stuck. Any ideas?
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 08:25 PM
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Glendale, Arizona
Joined Jul 2007
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Originally Posted by Molnar142 View Post
Ok so after the 7th test flight I have it more or less dialed in. However, roll is still a problem. Seems even with V2.1 when I back the gain off far enough that it doesn't flutter in the roll axis, I loose contol suface throw. On the ground it's quite evident. Hold the aileron stick hard over and flip the gyro switch on and off and you can immediately see half the aileron throw is taken away when the gyro is on. If you adjust the pot to about 50%, the aileron throw becomes the same whether the gyro switch is on or off but at this gain setting flutter results every time. Lower than 50% on the gain pot and the contol throw differential (gyro on vs gyro off) continues to widen. I've trialed about every adjustment on the radio and gyro I could think of but if I can't separate control surface throw from gyro gain, then I'm stuck. Any ideas?
Just a guess but is it possible that the servos are just a bit slow? If the servos can't follow the gyro signal, then the gyro signal will over-shoot in one direction and then over-shoot to bring it back in the opposite direction.

It may be necessary to get into the PID adjustments on high performance planes. My planes all seem ok but none of them are speed demons. Probably all of them are under or about 70 mph.


Just an idea,

cheers, JR
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Molnar142 View Post
Ok so after the 7th test flight I have it more or less dialed in. However, roll is still a problem. Seems even with V2.1 when I back the gain off far enough that it doesn't flutter in the roll axis, I loose contol suface throw. On the ground it's quite evident. Hold the aileron stick hard over and flip the gyro switch on and off and you can immediately see half the aileron throw is taken away when the gyro is on. If you adjust the pot to about 50%, the aileron throw becomes the same whether the gyro switch is on or off but at this gain setting flutter results every time. Lower than 50% on the gain pot and the contol throw differential (gyro on vs gyro off) continues to widen. I've trialed about every adjustment on the radio and gyro I could think of but if I can't separate control surface throw from gyro gain, then I'm stuck. Any ideas?
We will release v2.2 this week. This then has the issue fixed.(problem is only with lower than 5 gain settings, we extend this down to 1 in v2.2). Note that you can manually adjust (for one gain setting) by modifying the sensitivity settings on the Prof1 tab page. V2.2 also implements an automatic gain control to combat the vibration/feedback issue with high gain / high speed. Please see here.
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 10:53 PM
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Mark,

I saw your V2.2 video and will wait for it to come out before doing any more testing. I've adjusted the sensitivity and even P settings on the Roll axis. Reduction of either also causes a reduction in aileron control surface throw.
I'm a little concerned with V2.2 with the 3 Hz flutter detection and automatic gain reduction that I will also experience further control throw (aileron rate) reduction. My Habu will barely do a roll now with the gyro on. Switch it off and I have a blazing fast 2 roll per second roll rate!

JR-
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm flight testing on a stock Habu and it's no speed demon...especially with fixed gear. I'm sure the servos are nothing special. I suppose this could be an issue with the gyro but if my rates were unaffected by gyro gain setting, I could turn the gyro way down (almost off) yet still have the same roll rate that I'm used to with the gyro off. Pitch and yaw have no issue.

Mike
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Old Oct 15, 2012, 11:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Molnar142 View Post
Mark,

I saw your V2.2 video and will wait for it to come out before doing any more testing. I've adjusted the sensitivity and even P settings on the Roll axis. Reduction of either also causes a reduction in aileron control surface throw.
I'm a little concerned with V2.2 with the 3 Hz flutter detection and automatic gain reduction that I will also experience further control throw (aileron rate) reduction. My Habu will barely do a roll now with the gyro on. Switch it off and I have a blazing fast 2 roll per second roll rate!

JR-
Thanks for the thoughts. I'm flight testing on a stock Habu and it's no speed demon...especially with fixed gear. I'm sure the servos are nothing special. I suppose this could be an issue with the gyro but if my rates were unaffected by gyro gain setting, I could turn the gyro way down (almost off) yet still have the same roll rate that I'm used to with the gyro off. Pitch and yaw have no issue.

Mike
Hi JR, you will not see any control throw reduction (or increase) with v22 release as you switch gyro on off or with real time gain changes. You can test on the ground by moving the pots to min and max with full aileron stick applied to check it. It will also limit the gain to within the limits the gyro is happy with (ie between 1 and 35).
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 03:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Molnar142 View Post
Hi Mark,

Thanks for the clarification. I have now correctly installed v2.2 and it appears to have fixed the gain vs. control throw issue. I was able to verify on the ground that the rates were not reduced even at the lowest possible pot setting for roll.

I was able to flight test it today. Again, the gyro works great at almost full gain for pitch and yaw but at zero gain on the pot for roll the Habu still flutters at speed. Hopefully I can reduce the gain further by software otherwise I'm at a loss for how to fix. Since I didn't bring the laptop with me, I was unable to adjust so testing was done. So close. Other than this flutter issue in roll, the BL-3G seems quite impressive. At slower speeds (like on appoach) it's makes the Habu look like a 737 coming in. Super stable...even with decent wind gusts and thermals. Turn the gyro off and the Habu bounces around like a sub 40oz fomie usually does.

Mike
Hi Mike,

Hopefully the V2.2 will fix it, we've done some testing and the AGC (Automatic Gain Control) works for smallish size planes (about 1m wing span), where the issue is pronounced.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
Hi Mark,

Sorry for so many questions, some of which may be very basic.

1. In RATE mode, is the BL-3G Module operating as simply a "Rate Damping" device, or is it a "Rate Command" device? I suspect the terms are familiar to you, but I will clarify if you wish.

2. Can the BL-3GMod operate in mixed modes ? In other words, can it be operated in HH mode in only one axis while remaining in Rate mode in the other axes ?

3. In Takeoff Mode, can the BL-3GMod switch between modes ? For example, can you do the takeoff event in Yaw HH and then have it switch to Yaw Rate ? Would pitch or roll be at all effected by Takeoff Mode operation ?

Thanks again,

Dick
Hi Dick,
1. Rate is simply the measurement of angular rotation, ie rate of rotation in degrees per second normally
2. Yes HH is achieved by having a value set for the "I" part of the PID controller, and each PID controller can be programmed separately. But to be honest the HH is very prone to noise so we didn't see such good results with this but will do further testing
3. Take off mode can be configured to change the gain and rate target independently for pitch, roll and yaw. After expiration of the critical time the gyro will operate as normal. The basic PID controller parameters as set up are used for all gyro functions.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 05:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Brush Hog View Post
2.2 isnt on their website....
Later this week it will be... is now.
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Old Oct 16, 2012, 06:05 AM
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Originally Posted by otrcman View Post
Hi Mark,

I had missed this Takeoff Mode discussion until just now. Do I understand that Takeoff Mode provides for a temporary yaw gain increase which automatically goes away after a given time period? This sounds like a potentially great feature. I do have some questions.

1. Does the feature operate in Rate mode or HH or both ?

2. Is the time period adjustable ?

3. How is the feature reset ? In other words, will it re-engage each time the throttle is reduced or is there some specific pilot command required ?

4. Do I understand that a throttle input from the receiver is only necessary to provide timing information for the Takeoff Mode, or is the throttle input used for other reasons ?

Thank you,
Dick
Hi Dick,

Yes take off feature only limited in time duration that you set up
1. It operates in whatever the PID controller is set up for. But I strongly suggest you do not add a value into the "I" of the PID controller from the Prof1 tab page since it will then be always set. It is the "I" in the PID controller that makes the HH function. I would suggest you just let the take-off mode increase the gain by 2 or 3 times on the rudder only for a few seconds during the take off run

2.Yes, see advanced 2 tab page "Critical Time"

3. The take off mode is only entered into the very first time 70% or above throttle levels is achieved. However there is a "gyro on mode" which allows the critical time events to happen every time the gyro is switched from off to on.

4. No, the throttle input can also be output (set up from basic tab page) this means you have the advantages of:
a) Throttle lock feature for safety
b) Ability to put the throttle signal through a translation curve, to, for example, make it more flat or to make it any shape you like.

Mark
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