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Old Oct 08, 2012, 09:43 PM
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If you are trying to use this for a team select scenario then arent you aiming at the 'super elite' pilots? A team selection is not the time to be catering for the middle of the range guy.
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by lesterpk View Post
If you are trying to use this for a team select scenario then arent you aiming at the 'super elite' pilots? A team selection is not the time to be catering for the middle of the range guy.
Thats a valid question. We have 4 pilots in Canada who felw this year. Next year it might be as little as two...if we keep pushing the elite envelope we will have none in just a few years. I am looking for a TS format that actually is something more people can practice on thier own.

Its a compromise for sure.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 07:13 PM
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Got a little head wind today and took the GPS logger out again - looks like I lost the first 3 launches from the logger which appeared to me a fair bit higher - the last 4 were ballasted lanuches and I can tell thats what I am looking at on the graph because on the first 3 I did not try to climb out on lift so the flight pattern here is indicative of the last 4 launches. My x2 was ballasted to 77 oz - I was getting about 150-175 meters ballasted in light winds 1-2 m/sec. I was well above 200 m without ballast on the first 3 launches. I was putting about 75 paces into the bungee.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 09:24 PM
kdt
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My Feeling also

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Originally Posted by lesterpk View Post
If you are trying to use this for a team select scenario then arent you aiming at the 'super elite' pilots? A team selection is not the time to be catering for the middle of the range guy.
I am all for using this format for getting more people into competition but I feel it is a mistake to to force this as a National Team Trial format for an F3J World Championship. I have been to the last two World Championships and we used two man tows for both of the Team Trials I attended. I believe all Canadian Team Selects have used 2 man tows. They were not perfect but they never are. It is possible to do it again and improve the overall performance of the towers we enlist.

This bungee format will be fun and very good to get more interest in F3J. Great also to hone low level thermal skills and emphasize landing skills in 10 minute tasks. I am excited about doing all I can to help get it going.

Lets not assume we have to use a bungee (medium or mega) for our team selects... I am all for experimenting with this. Perhaps with the right tools we can do better than 2 man tows .
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 12:15 AM
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I am all for using this format for getting more people into competition but I feel it is a mistake to to force this as a National Team Trial format for an F3J World Championship. I have been to the last two World Championships and we used two man tows for both of the Team Trials I attended. I believe all Canadian Team Selects have used 2 man tows. They were not perfect but they never are. It is possible to do it again and improve the overall performance of the towers we enlist.

This bungee format will be fun and very good to get more interest in F3J. Great also to hone low level thermal skills and emphasize landing skills in 10 minute tasks. I am excited about doing all I can to help get it going.

Lets not assume we have to use a bungee (medium or mega) for our team selects... I am all for experimenting with this. Perhaps with the right tools we can do better than 2 man tows .
"It is possible to do it again and improve the overall performance of the towers we enlist."

?? how? We start from near scratch every TS when it comes to towers we get 2-3 maybe 4 return towers and these guys can really tow...and hey it shows on the launch line every time - so thats a potential 10 new towers that have no experience and will invariably get crushed until they understand the task and bear down to it if they can.... How do you intend to improve this with zero experience on the part of the new people? I hope you are not considering Cylon technology because downloading virtual previous memories into new towers is risky with the resurection ship so far away...(sorry I really miss Battle Star Galactica)

Anyways, I think ill leave it to MAAC to either accept or deny the application and the option for anyone else to apply is also there. If I had to go back to towing I would opt for personal tow teams. That takes the pressure off the organizers and puts the onus of skin in the game back on the pilots.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 12:38 AM
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Personal Towers... :)

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If "I" had to go back to towing "I" would opt for personal tow teams.

The World according to David...

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Old Oct 10, 2012, 12:11 PM
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The World according to David...

This has been a spirited conversation and for those of you reading this (if anyone at all) you should know that Keith and I will meet for a practice session and beers this week. We joust and push but in the end we are on the same team.

Thats an interesting perspective - it's also easy to resolve if it appears I a being a dictator -

I think I stated earlier that anyone can propose the TS application Keith, you might consider doing an application for 2 man towing and then be prepared to run that whole adventure. I will however this TS call for an immediate round relite if the launch power sucks when I am NOT in control of who I get to launch my plane. Its not fair to practice for a year and show up to have 3-4 of 8 rounds with towers that cant pull. Been there done that - not interested in it again. We need a better solution.

Also, I am working 3 weeks of the month out of the country and my options are limited. I don't have the time to find and call 10-14 call towers if we fill the 7 pilots slot we can potentially fill, follow up and hope the day one training works and they can tow. "If" I am going to do the application with this schedule before me, I need a format I can manage with limited time and resources. Ideally I want a level playing field on the launch because that's a fair scenario that hurts no one.


Also just for a moment if we could move from the myopic points of launch process and consider that next summer there may only be two pilots committed and funded to go to a WC from Canada (you and myself). If we segregate ourselves and have two pilots then finding your own tow team is not that big a deal in my dictatorial, oppressive opinion. In that case then we can manage a two man tow and we will individually be responsible for choosing our teams - that ends my bitching about bad tows and hits your desire for towing - nice compromise (slams gavel)

Also (food for thought) With a really good bungee format we could invite a large group of Americans and even...ohhh "other out of country notables" to one of the best flying sites in the world and then rescore the Canadians for normalized scores for the TS outcome -

OK so after all this Keith - Steves field is perfectly mowed and has no fertilizer on it (yet) - what say you come out and fly today or tomorrow and test this new bungee ?
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:10 PM
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Okay, the airing of this on the groups has been fun. I'm glad your Grace has decreed there is a chance we can have a Team Select that uses the same launch format as the World Championship we both hope to attend

I'll bring my mega bungee to Andersons...

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This has been a spirited conversation and for those of you reading this (if anyone at all) you should know that Keith and I will meet for a practice session and beers this week. We joust and push but in the end we are on the same team.

Thats an interesting perspective - it's also easy to resolve if it appears I a being a dictator -

I think I stated earlier that anyone can propose the TS application Keith, you might consider doing an application for 2 man towing and then be prepared to run that whole adventure. I will however this TS call for an immediate round relite if the launch power sucks when I am NOT in control of who I get to launch my plane. Its not fair to practice for a year and show up to have 3-4 of 8 rounds with towers that cant pull. Been there done that - not interested in it again. We need a better solution.

Also, I am working 3 weeks of the month out of the country and my options are limited. I don't have the time to find and call 10-14 call towers if we fill the 7 pilots slot we can potentially fill, follow up and hope the day one training works and they can tow. "If" I am going to do the application with this schedule before me, I need a format I can manage with limited time and resources. Ideally I want a level playing field on the launch because that's a fair scenario that hurts no one.


Also just for a moment if we could move from the myopic points of launch process and consider that next summer there may only be two pilots committed and funded to go to a WC from Canada (you and myself). If we segregate ourselves and have two pilots then finding your own tow team is not that big a deal in my dictatorial, oppressive opinion. In that case then we can manage a two man tow and we will individually be responsible for choosing our teams - that ends my bitching about bad tows and hits your desire for towing - nice compromise (slams gavel)

Also (food for thought) With a really good bungee format we could invite a large group of Americans and even...ohhh "other out of country notables" to one of the best flying sites in the world and then rescore the Canadians for normalized scores for the TS outcome -

OK so after all this Keith - Steves field is perfectly mowed and has no fertilizer on it (yet) - what say you come out and fly today or tomorrow and test this new bungee ?
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:37 PM
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Why not use F3B winches again? No I didn't have the time to read this entire thread.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 09:11 PM
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Why not use F3B winches again? No I didn't have the time to read this entire thread.
Its the Canadian TS - not enough winches to go around...
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Old Oct 11, 2012, 12:55 AM
kdt
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today

Light wind and fog. Had a chance to try Davids new bungee and it looks promising. The extra pull needed to get loaded up on the line is more tiring than getting a stronger tension using my mega bungee and 65M of mono. The longer walk under tension is the reason for me. In the light wind the mega launched my Maxa in 2 to 3 second but not very high (100m ?). The medium is a 5 or 6 second tow and after a few tows to get a feel for it produced a pretty good launch. Looking forward to seeing Davids logger data.

Maybe we can use a mega and a medium bungee for each lane?
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Old Oct 12, 2012, 06:13 PM
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Logs for the above noted testing - we were launch 45 to basically no wind IMO as it was a foggy day - the lift was really fun though!

I Was beat and did not pull the bungee to anyone near 60 lbs and I manages 126-135 meters and 4-5 seconds on the line.

You can see from the previous postings thatt he launch gear is capable of much high launches as I was hitting 175m ballasted with a 1-2 mph head wind the other day and have logs of close to 250 meters.

It looks like rain here for the next 7 days so thats going to put an end to testing for a week

I am positive about using this as a fair MOM based launch solution but wil post more results when I can.

DW
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 08:46 PM
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squandered a relatively nice day fishing...but I will be home this week so hopefully I can get some more test launches done in some wind.

Regardless of the TS usage question here im going to be hosting a contest or three this summer to work some bugs out. I am hopeful that we will have Andersons turf farm as a venue for a larger contest. This site is capable of a WC level event.

There are large buildings that could house planes, hotels near by and a few great brewpubs (bar with a microbrew attached) -

So now i have been thinking about some of the typical contest CD pain points - relites and early releases. I am inclined to stick to J level rules when I can and modify when it looks like an impact the flow of the event is likely to happen.


Example - Early release of the model before the tone = immediate land and relite OR more appropriate - possibly a time penalty (45 seconds) because running and getting the chute may involve untangling lines with other lanes which then would involve a reflight of the group. In the end even if you dont have to untangle a line retrieving and stretching the line out again would be at least 40 seconds so the spirit is that an added time penalty approximates the pain of the tow team getting ready for a subsequent launch.

Also given the simplicity of the launching hardware its entirely possible to supply a second bungee and even a spare lane for relites.

Pilots choice here would be interesting too - land and relight or take a penalty -

Thoughts?
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 09:52 PM
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Safety

Hello David,

Since it's rainy season now, figure you wouldn't mind if I sent a little more your way... lol.

Seriously, in the interest of safety, in my opinion there can be no relaunches with your mega bungee contest; it is just too dangerous to be in front of the flightline with a loaded slingshot facing you. I would also recomend that all of the lines are prestretched without the models and are hung on pegs prior to the pilots and their helpers stepping up to connect/launch. A pop-off, hand slip, or collision could all lead to loaded lines and/or carbon zipping along the grass, this could easily result in a serious injury or worse.

That said, I like the idea of developing a bungee system that approximates the tension/feel of a quick J launch that those of us in the "sticks" could use for practice and strength training.

Sam
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Old Oct 20, 2012, 10:48 PM
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Hey Sam thanks for your input.

I am trying to visualize why anyone would be in front of the model in the lane while its under tension. The concept is to have a long bungee spiked in effectively with no one at the stake end at all. We are talking about 200 feet of mono - 25 feet of rubber stretched to 80 paces so 300 feet between the spike and the pilot at launch. The model is tensioned and the pilots are behind them in the safety corridor.

If you need to relite the models are going to typically be well away from the launch area and no one should be moving toward to spike end unless they intend to clear a bungee or tension it for relites. Line tangles might cause group relites which is why I am considering two bungees and potentially a spare lanes.

In f3J with tows or winches given a round with some chaos and multiple relites going on at the same time the lane width is typically enough to afford a measure of safety so far for relites.

I see the initial difference between bungees and tows being that once you let go of a bungee its basically hold on and deal with the engergy...no "off switch" however in reality there is no off switch for a two man tow either. If something goes south during your tow your towers typically dont feel it until 4-5 seconds into the tow.


Maybe you could help me better understand your concern. I am still working through the concept as I go.

Another note of differentiation is that this launch format based on a slightly smaller bungee will not give you a full J tension experience. Thats not the goal of the format. I am trying for a more managable launch format that is lower cost - even for all pilots and basically easy to duplicate from region to region and does not require a lot of people to duplicate. The idea is building momentum in other regions as well.

Don't get me wrong im a hard core J guy and I want to practice sub second tows for the real deal but I am making a concession in this format for the larger picture.

If you want that quick J sub second launch experience then I strongly reccomend the full mega bungee that Keith and Joe W are using. For working on really high tension super short tows that launch system with a short peice of mano is an excellent way to go. I am going to order one of these as well.

The bungees in testing now are delivering between 140 - 200 meters of launch height over 4-6 seconds which is a more managable power curve.

In terms of F3J skills nothing is really lost - short tows still award a pilot with more flight time, pilots still need to anticipate the power of the system and come off at peak power or early if they think the lift is evident.

However in terms of managing acontest at the event level if we went to this system then clubs east to west north and south could all use the same product and we would have a contest format that ANY club could pull off with ease.

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Hello David,

Since it's rainy season now, figure you wouldn't mind if I sent a little more your way... lol.

Seriously, in the interest of safety, in my opinion there can be no relaunches with your mega bungee contest; it is just too dangerous to be in front of the flightline with a loaded slingshot facing you. I would also recomend that all of the lines are prestretched without the models and are hung on pegs prior to the pilots and their helpers stepping up to connect/launch. A pop-off, hand slip, or collision could all lead to loaded lines and/or carbon zipping along the grass, this could easily result in a serious injury or worse.

That said, I like the idea of developing a bungee system that approximates the tension/feel of a quick J launch that those of us in the "sticks" could use for practice and strength training.

Sam
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